Quest for boredom remover

[Kurdt]

And you call yourself a Quest for Glory Fan, too...

[Slink]

Maybe someone could edit the game executable using a hex editor, and make it so that certain events (ie marriage, ressurection) could tag certain global values in your character's data. Also, an "Import" feature could be implemented, thus saving all necessary attributes to a file.  This would be an odd situation for people who are starting the new game from scratch, of course.  Also, if the next game wasn't in 3D, then it would be quite a strange transition...
-Slink

[adeyke]

While that sort of editing is unfeasible, it could just be implemented as a series of questions when you start to play the game ("Whom did you marry?" "Did you accept the throne?", etc.).  However, this technical detail for how to know the choices the player made is not the biggest problem.  Rather, the actual story that works with all those different paths is.

Suppose there are three characters.

Character A is a typical Paladin (if there is such a thing).  He's become a Hero because he believes in Goodness and Honour and all sorts of things like that.  He's sacrificed part of his life essence to return the archmage Erana to the world.  He declines the throne; he only entered the Rites in order to find the assassin, after all.  Instead, he'll continue his adventures with his love, bringing light to the world.

Character B believes more in Glory than in Honor.  He is in a quest for glory, after all.  While he does Hero work, he really appreciates the rewards and praise he gets for it.  He likes fame and reputation.  So when he gets the chance to become king, he jumps at the opportunity.  He marries Elsa, a fellow Hero.  Together, they'll make Silmaria a mighty and glorious kingdom.

Character C is more interested in power.  Throughout his adventures, he's learned powerful spells and has used them to defeat evil opponents.  He realizes that, in order to defeat dark wizards, he'll need many spells of his own.  In Mordavia, he fell in love with the powerful mage Katrina.  However, she was bound to the darkness and only escaped when she sacrificed herself for him.  Now he's had the chance to bring her back to the living.  He declines the throne, since his thirst for power cannot be satisfied by something so mundane.  Instead, he wants to spend more time studying magic.

(There's also a fourth character, really.  Character D would be the selfish thief who becomes Chief Thief and marries Nawar.  However, this one doesn't really make sense to me.  I can see why someone would take the odd thief job on the path to becoming a Hero, and I can see him wanting the incredible wealth of the Blackbird, but then becoming the actual chief of a criminal organization seems out of character).

Now, if there was a QfG6, it would have to make sense for all of them.  This is where the problem lies.  The adventuring Paladin, the glorious king, the powerful wizard, and the crime lord would normally all live very different lives.  So it would be very difficult to write a good story that works for all of them.

And those were just some of the most typical combinations.  If we say the choices a characters faces are the class, whom to marry (if anyone), whom to rescue from Hades (if anyone), and whether or not to accept the throne, there are 80 total possible combinations (with multiplication, it would be 4*4*3*2=96, but some of those are impossible (some classes can't marry some people, and you can't marry someone if they're in Hades).  So really, you'd need a story that works for all 80 of those.

And it's important that the story shouldn't cheapen,invalidate or ignore these choices.  It would be easy to just have people refer to you as King of Silmaria instead of Prince of Shapeir if you accepted the throne, but if that's the only effect, it'll be horribly unsatisfying.  The same goes for a story where the wife doesn't play a major role.

And note that none of the existing QfG games really had to deal with this problem, since there weren't really significant choices to make.  The biggest ones I can think of are failing to do certain subquests (like the rest of the curse in QfG1 and Julanar in QfG2).  In these cases, it's simply assumed that you do do them correctly for purposes of the sequels.  Parts of QfG4 just wouldn't work if you didn't drive away Baba Yaga in QfG1, for example.  This does take a bit of choice away from the player, but in most cases, the player who skipped those subquests probably didn't know how to do them or just forgot; it's unlikely to be an active decision.  For the most part, though, the games end the same way regardless of who's playing.  That makes the choices and possibilities of QfG5 a special case.

[Kurdt]

I disagree. Like I said, though there are about 80 different choices to make regarding the end to QFG5, the file you exported probably saved whatever combination it was that you had. In QFG3, if you were a Wizard or a Thief that became a Paladin, you got the intro for the Wizard or the Thief. If you just chose to make your character a Paladin, it would assume you were originally a Fighter and give you that opening. Lori Cole obviously thought ahead when creating the export file for QFG2 that the next game might need to know that stuff. It isn't too much of a stretch of the imagination to think that she did the same thing with QFG5, regardless of whether or not she believed she would ever make a QFG6.

As for those just starting out with a character and having never-before played QFG, there would be set determined things for the different characters that were "their choices;" that is, the ones that were ideal to those characters. It seems to me that the Paladin would've given up the throne and married Erana; the Fighter would have taken the throne and married Elsa; the Wizard would have given up the throne and married Katrina; and the Thief would have given up the throne, become Chief Thief, and married Nawar. Since it's been seen before that there are ideal things you should have done in previous QFGs that later QFGs assume you did (i.e. drive away Baba Yaga, interact with Julanar), it wouldn't exactly be a breaking of continuity to assume these things, or even a breaking of adventure game convention. I'm sure if a new KQ game came out that referenced KQ6, Cassima's parents would be alive and well and Alexander would have Shamir Shamazel at his side along with Jollo. I don't see why hilighting the "ideal" plotline in QFG6 would be an exception.

Now, if there was a QfG6, it would have to make sense for all of them.  This is where the problem lies.  The adventuring Paladin, the glorious king, the powerful wizard, and the crime lord would normally all live very different lives.  So it would be very difficult to write a good story that works for all of them.

Once again, I very much disagree. QFG has always been about different ways to achieve the same results. The path of the Thief is different from the path of the fighter. In QFG1, this was mostly just things like the Thief would sneak through the forest and therefore never encounter any monsters while the Fighter would battle the monsters and the Magic User would use spells to stop them or avoid them. As the games progressed, the plots diverged. In QFG2, the Thief scales the castle walls and sneaks through the Harem, using a tightrope to acrobatically make his way into Ad Avis' summoning room. How you defeated Ad Avis was completely different as well. In QFG4, the Wizard has the interactions with the faeries for Erana's staff and the Paladin frees the Rusulka, burns down the Monestary, and communes with Piotyr's ghost to retrieve the family heirlooms of the Burgomeister.

As the Hero grows in skill and becomes more specialized in his field, the mechanics of the plots continue to diverge, even leading to completely different stories that are somehow still the same. I always thought this was the virtue of QFG. There were really 3-4 different stories in the same game. There are over 36,000 ways to make a Whataburger. It doesn't take a whole lot of brain power to create a story that can be played in 4 different ways. Since now the differences between classes are even more pronounced, it leads to more individual subplots, and the characters of the wives themselves could be integrated with this. While it would take a lot of thinking and designing to do, it's far from impossible or even much more difficult than the other games to build a QFG6 off the different foundations of QFG5 and make it even better and more replayable than any of the previous QFGs.

[Adventure_Knight]

Maybe if we just use a different opening for each combination and different ways to refer to him?

[haradan]

I remember there was this program in Wing Commander I Special Operations that allowed you to transfer an existing saved game into the SO campaign. I think it wouldn't be difficult at all to create such a program (outside the main game) that asked what your decisions were in QFG5 and created an import file.

Now, recalling QFG4, although your hero was already a BIG hero (hero of Spielburg, prince of Shapeir, saviour of Tarna) since you were magically transported to Mordavia, nobody knew this and you were just a stranger.
The same approach could be taken on a possible QFG6, if nobody knows you nobody calls you names  ;)  

Furthermore, lets say your hero gets abducted by magical means to, say Punjab (just to please djIndy). You could also be stripped of part of your powers (just part so it wouldn't be the same to have a 300 or 500 statistics since you'd end with, say 150 or 350). That way you are also addresing the statistics problem and it would be a nice challenge to rebuild your hero to 500 or even 600.

And of course, if you are married, there could be a subquest involving your wife (maybe she goes out looking for you, so you'd play 2 adventures in one game). I agree, the sky's the limit. This is just, how you say, blabering? But my point is that it's very posible to continue the series, there are many ways around the problems.

[gamecreator]

If I remember correctly, the Coles commented in one of their chats on how much of a pain just accomodating the thief was, due to him exploring new places.  Essentially having dozens of new playable characters (i.e. single king fighter, married king fighter, single non-king fighter, etc. etc. etc.) won't help matters.

On the other hand, there were a lot of things that weren't dealt with directly (or at all) in the existing games.  For example, how big a deal was it that you're a Prince of Shapeir?  A similar solution could be administered for the hero's possible kingship.  For that matter, him being king in a town he's never heard of doesn't really do much for him (unless, perhaps, if he meets people he knows).

As for the marriage, the wife could do her own thing.  She could have her own adventure elsewhere.  Or the hero and she could be separated by another teleport spell.  No big deal.  She could still be talked about.  Maybe the hero could have a useful item of hers in his possession.  There's just no need to tell everyone you see about her.  (But perhaps a trinket merchant would notice your ring and bring up another similar item which could do who-knows-what.)

As haradan well put it, there are many ways around the problems.

[Adventure_Knight]

Instead or having to import the character, we could have the player selecting if he did become king, if he got married, etc. And start the game. (At least it would be easier than modyfing the game so that it reads that file)

[Jontas]

All this talk seems based on the assumption that a new quest for glory game (QFG6) would be a continuation on the old series, and that the hero would be the same hero of old. I think this would be a mistake! I want to see a new quest for glory series that incorporates parts of the old series into its legacy, lore or mythology, while introducing a new hero with a fresh start. Any references to the hero of old would be deliberately ambiguous and over exaggerated (as most myths inevitably do with their central characters). This could be done in a very humorous and satisfactory way.

Our new hero should be free from the restrictions of the old, i.e. a young white human male. The new hero could be male or female, young or old, and human or creature. The classes could extend beyond the traditional fighter, thief or magic user (the Paladin was a later development). Given the opportunities allowed by today's gaming industry I think a game like this is feasible and would have the ability to fulfill the dreams that the Coles had for the original series beyond their wildest imaginations.

[Kurdt]

I think we've already talked about that, though. I mean, ideally a new QFG game would have a new hero, and I'm pretty sure a new QFG game would seeing as how the Coles designed the QFG series to be five games long. The original QFG saga is complete already. A new hero would be the way to go.

However, we're having a good time debating what ways things could be done if the Hero were to go into QFG6.

And Adventure_Knight, I think you misunderstood me. What I'm saying is that the import file from QFG5 most probably saved all of that information, so if you import a character it's got it all saved for you. There wouldn't be any modifications made to the file. If you're starting a new character, there would be set things that the game assumes you did in regards to which class you decide (i.e. Paladin married Erana and gave up throne, etc. etc.) and the story is built off of there. Adeyke doesn't think a story can be made to fit the 4 classes now that they're so different, but I disagree. That, right there, is this thread in a nutshell.

[gamecreator]

I'd also just like to add that forcing the starting player to be something he might not have chosen takes away from the very point of role playing games: choice.

[Kurdt]

But we've already noted things that the QFG series did already that did the same thing. For example, you could've gone the entirety of QFG1 without once going to see Baba Yaga, however the rest of the games (QFG4 especially) assume that you not only went and saw her, but defeated her. Also, you didn't have to go help Julanar in QFG2, however QFG3 and QFG5 both assume that you did. Therefore, choice was eliminated in those two scenarios.

Also, if you choose to be a theif in QFG3 you don't exactly have anything to do, therefore not making that much of a choice.

Some more reference: In KQ6, you didn't have to befriend Jollo, you didn't have to save Shamir's life, you didn't have to resurrect Cassima's parents, and I don't even think you had to introduce Beauty and the Beast. However, were a game to come out that references KQ6, there's no doubt in my mind that the game would consider all of that happened.

It wouldn't be really eliminating choice at any given point in time. Like I said, if you import a character it would have all of your choices saved in the file and play the game with those choices in mind. If you were a Fighter who married Nawar and rejected the throne, you would play the game as a Fighter, Nawar would be your wife, and you wouldn't be referred to as King. However, if you do not import a character, it just assumes you took the ideal path for each class. This doesn't sound like the elimination of choice to me.

[Jontas]

...However, were a game to come out that references KQ6, there's no doubt in my mind that the game would consider all of that happened...

Case in point "The Silver Lining", and I agree with what you've said. It's pretty clear that any game in any Sierra adventure series assumes that you made the correct or ideal choices in the previous game(s).

Who owns the title or rights to Quest for Glory, Vivendi? I wonder what it would take to convince them to create a new QFG series? I hate it when I get optimistic, I think QFG 3D will be awesome if it ever sees the light of day. Again, I hate to be an optimist.

[gamecreator]

I understand when designers choose paths for the player out of necessity to the story.  But that's not the case here.  If imported characters are supported, meaning each path is addressed in the game, then there's no need to limit starting characters.

[adeyke]

I wonder what it would take to convince them to create a new QFG series?

Hell freezing over and pigs flying, at the very least.

[Adventure_Knight]

Really? How bad, I was really hoping to play Quest for Glory on videoconsoles... (You can, but with emulators and they only support episodes 1 to 4)

[Jontas]

Hell freezing over and pigs flying, at the very least.

Anybody have any ideas on how we get hell to freeze over, anyone?
Yeah that's what I thought.

We could launch some pigs from a catapult at Vivendi.
Anybody have a catapult? or a pig farm, anyone?

I think I just bruised my IQ, you know, from dropping it like that.


On a more serious note:

I understand when designers choose paths for the player out of necessity to the story.  But that's not the case here.  If imported characters are supported, meaning each path is addressed in the game, then there's no need to limit starting characters.

I think the need that has been expressed so far is to illiminate the relevance of many of the previous chosen paths, in order to create a feasible and coherent continuation of adventures, given the new options of races and classes.

[Kurdt]

I still vote we need a new hero altogether. All the rest of this blabbering is nothing but speculation on how it could be done with the same guy.

[Jontas]

I've advocated all along that we need a new QFG series with a new hero, however this does not mean it can exist in denial of the first series (as if it never happened). In some way you have to acknowledge the hero of old, and some of his adventures in order to sustain a coherent QFG mythology and world.

[gamecreator]

Really, I think any of the possibilites could be made enjoyable, so consider this a five-way tie, but here's my order of preference (from most to least ideal):

• New hero, known world
  Known hero, pre-QfG5 game
  Son of known hero
  New hero, new world
  Known hero, post-QfG5 game

[adeyke]

I think my rankings would be similar, but it depends on how you define "known" vs. "new."  I don't want a "known" world as in Spielburg, Shapeir, Tarna, Mordavia, or Silmaria.  At the same time, I don't want a "new" world that tries actively to be different from the QfG world in every way.

I guess I'd want the game to be in the same world but a different part of it.  Or maybe it should be somewhere that isn't explicitly stated to be part of the same world but doesn't have anything that would contradict this possibility.

[gamecreator]

Yes, by known world I meant Glorianna.

[Kurdt]

I'm not so down with it being referential to the old hero. I mean, yeah, if you want Easter Eggs and stuff, you could have a library that has a chronicle of the Hero's adventures (Narrator: "One Long Year" by...hmmm, the name seems to be worn out, but you can see the title "Prince of Shapeir" on the bottom) or maybe have one guy you don't have to talk to mention the hero, but things always shoot themselves in the foot by being self-referential. It would probably be quite clear once you see Katta and Liontaurs that you're in the same world. That would be more than enough for me.

Also, I would absolutely despise a "Son of the Hero's Quest" game. I think that's one of the hokiest ideas on the face of the earth and it's always been dumb whenever it's been used in entertainment. I'd say either new hero entirely with no connection or the old hero.

I never thought of there being a whole new world, though. That could prove interesting. In fact...that gives me something of an idea...

[dr_foreman]

This might sound like a weird idea, but - if you want to keep Devon Aidendale as the hero, why not set QFG6 about 10-15 years after Dragon Fire and simply say that his wife's dead and he lost the kingdom? Then you eliminate all that irksome continuity right away and just get on with the story!

I know that's a radical idea, and I'm probably only suggesting it because I'm not too fond of Dragon Fire. But I really think you need to undo that game somehow in order to proceed with the series, since it seems like a pretty definitive ending to the hero's adventures. (I think any story with him as king of Silmaria is bound to be boring - sort of like "King Conan" stories, during which Conan has a tendency to lose the throne and go rogue anyway...)

P.S. Where did the name "Devon Aidendale" come from?  I sort of loathe it.  Why's it considered canonical if it never appeared in the games? Just curious...

[gamecreator]

See my post above for less radical versions of what can be done to not have to worry about the hero having become someone else.  Your idea works for me too but I know some people are more attached to the hero and his choices.

As to the son and new hero ideas, I think pretty much anything could work, as long as it follows most of the QfG formula.  I'm less concerned about who the hero was (within limits) than how I play him and what I make of him.  The son idea I talked about wouldn't be a game about him being the son.  It wouldn't be Quest for Glory: Son of a Hero.  That would be a minor point brought up a few times in the game.  Would that still not work?  If so, why not (besides it being "hokey" and "dumb")?  I can understand this also being just a personal preference but considering the natural progression of the hero's interest in women throughout the games, and then the marriage, I don't see why a hero couldn't have a hero son who would eventually go off on his own adventures.