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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2007 8:03 am 
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Piotyr wrote:
The ranger would take the combat aproach but would menuver into a safe spot to pick him off before the enemy can get to him. to solve puzzles he would use his outdoorsmen skills and maybe trapped animal companions, he would also be able to sleep outside etc but would suffer ALOT in direct combat.


Could also limit how high an ability can be or what weapons/spells a character could use; or give large penalties for using a weapon/spell that isn't within that character's class.

With the exception of combat limitations, a couple more spells and the magic staff, I was always a little disappointed the wizard in QfG didn't exactly define himself more distinctly than a fighter or thief with magical abilities.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2007 8:33 am 
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DonQuixote wrote:
Piotyr wrote:
The ranger would take the combat aproach but would menuver into a safe spot to pick him off before the enemy can get to him. to solve puzzles he would use his outdoorsmen skills and maybe trapped animal companions, he would also be able to sleep outside etc but would suffer ALOT in direct combat.


Could also limit how high an ability can be or what weapons/spells a character could use; or give large penalties for using a weapon/spell that isn't within that character's class.

With the exception of combat limitations, a couple more spells and the magic staff, I was always a little disappointed the wizard in QfG didn't exactly define himself more distinctly than a fighter or thief with magical abilities.


Well first of all qfg did limit you on weapons but sadly it allowed every class to cast spells or steal, really if you were a fighter in qfg1 you could become an omni character by putting your skills in the right places, all you would have to do is give up stealth till 2 and theres no real need for it till later games anyway. It got better in later installments but only became trunly limiting class wise in 4 and 5.
If making a new game I would not allow other classes to sink points into magic stealth acrobatics and lockpick(and if adding ranger outdoorsmen).
I would also combine acrobatics and stealth so thieves would not have to sink much more points into skills then other classes. Then if there were a sequal I would allow advance classes and add a skill to each class the advanced ones can't use thus giving reasons not to use said class.

I wish there were a job out there for consultents(Even unpaid) because I tend to point out the few things that can make things better in a game(Or playable depending on how crappy the game is):P.

Edit: you know the more I talk about the ranger class the more I wish it was in the actual game, it sounds really intresting even to me and I am the one who made it up! Never had that happen before.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2007 5:10 pm 
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Personally, I'd like to see the reverse of what you guys are talking about: becoming someone based on how you start out and how you play the character.

Imagine that instead of choosing your character, you are presented with an image of a shadow.  You then put points into whatever you want.  If you avoid magical and thief skills then you will start as a fighter.  But if you start with both fighting and magic skills, you simply become a plain character.

If you develop your fighting skills, you'll become a Fighter.  If you develop your magic skills, you'll become a Wizard.  But if you develop both, you'll become a Battlemage.

Similarly, if you are a Fighter and you do honorable deeds, you'll become a Paladin.  This, just like with the others, I would suggest happening in-game (as opposed to the game end, as done in QfG2).  You would be left a note to celebrate your step up (or maybe attending the celebration would officially change your class).  Different groups could show their interest in your skills as you grow and display them.  If you start primarily with fighting skills but you steal here and there, maybe the Assassin's guild will send you a dagger with a note wrapped around it.

Granted, these are more complex than the current Quest for Glory games.  Maybe not as realistic to create.  But I'm just playing with ideas here.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2007 5:30 pm 
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gamecreator wrote:
Personally, I'd like to see the reverse of what you guys are talking about: becoming someone based on how you start out and how you play the character.

Imagine that instead of choosing your character, you are presented with an image of a shadow.  You then put points into whatever you want.  If you avoid magical and thief skills then you will start as a fighter.  But if you start with both fighting and magic skills, you simply become a plain character.

If you develop your fighting skills, you'll become a Fighter.  If you develop your magic skills, you'll become a Wizard.  But if you develop both, you'll become a Battlemage.

Similarly, if you are a Fighter and you do honorable deeds, you'll become a Paladin.  This, just like with the others, I would suggest happening in-game (as opposed to the game end, as done in QfG2).  You would be left a note to celebrate your step up (or maybe attending the celebration would officially change your class).  Different groups could show their interest in your skills as you grow and display them.  If you start primarily with fighting skills but you steal here and there, maybe the Assassin's guild will send you a dagger with a note wrapped around it.

Granted, these are more complex than the current Quest for Glory games.  Maybe not as realistic to create.  But I'm just playing with ideas here.


Note you are basicly thinking a more class oriented marrowind here, no class just skills to build.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2007 5:55 pm 
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A katta would actually make for two classes which would be very interesting.

The first would be the 'good' Katta character... a good communicator and merchant who's capable of dealing with a variety of people and settle issues easily. Also with their agility and speed, they make for great 'lightweight' fighters if you know what I'm talking about, and there comes their stealth which is good for a way of getting past the bad guys without making a mess.

The second is basically the other side of the coin... a 'bad' Katta character would be a good conman/swindler who excels at deceiving and tricking people and (of course) a thief. The combat skills are the same as above. I guess the only thing that's different about this 'class' is just the intention and action of the character and not the class really.

Till next time stay cool :smokin


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2007 7:08 pm 
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Piotyr wrote:
gamecreator wrote:
...

Note you are basicly thinking a more class oriented marrowind here, no class just skills to build.

I never played the game but I do think the class was relevant, for the reasons I mentioned before.  At the beginning it might not matter, but that's perfect for the start of Quest for Glory 1.  After that, you're developed, if you choose to be, into the class you "live."  If you play as a Fighter, you'll become one.  Or, if you put most or all of your points into Fighter skills from the start, you'll start as a Fighter.  But if around QfG3 you start to tinker with magic instead and abandon your Fighting skills, you could turn into a late Wizard (or a Battlemage, if you combine them).  Much more flexible (and realistic - kind of like a career change).  After all, why must you be locked into the path you choose for the rest of your life?  I understand why Sierra didn't do it this way (it was hard for them just to incorporate the Thief as he was) but I think this would be neat.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 6:39 am 
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gamecreator wrote:
Personally, I'd like to see the reverse of what you guys are talking about: becoming someone based on how you start out and how you play the character.

Imagine that instead of choosing your character, you are presented with an image of a shadow.  You then put points into whatever you want.  If you avoid magical and thief skills then you will start as a fighter.  But if you start with both fighting and magic skills, you simply become a plain character.

If you develop your fighting skills, you'll become a Fighter.  If you develop your magic skills, you'll become a Wizard.  But if you develop both, you'll become a Battlemage.

Similarly, if you are a Fighter and you do honorable deeds, you'll become a Paladin.  This, just like with the others, I would suggest happening in-game (as opposed to the game end, as done in QfG2).  You would be left a note to celebrate your step up (or maybe attending the celebration would officially change your class).  Different groups could show their interest in your skills as you grow and display them.  If you start primarily with fighting skills but you steal here and there, maybe the Assassin's guild will send you a dagger with a note wrapped around it.

Granted, these are more complex than the current Quest for Glory games.  Maybe not as realistic to create.  But I'm just playing with ideas here.


This notion had never actually occurred to me before, although I think I unintentially did it when I first played the game.  I started with QG3 and I didn't fully get the spells, so I gave my character throwing... ended up having a character very good at fighting with a dagger, solving puzzles without points, and lacked in good magical skills.  Worked up until the initiation, kept running out of mana.


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 Post subject: heres an idea, and its not mine
PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 6:38 am 
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I had an idea inspired by another party, but mine is different.

A whole separate game, composed of a reverse plot.
Three classes, of basically the same nature.
The story could be the same, even with some of the same characters.
But the hero could be the enemy, with slightly skewed motives.

Here is an example in the spirit of things, using Quest for Glory 2,
A young wizard, working for the Emir of Raseir, and apprentice to Ad Avis, sees a prize. His plans are not evil, just for glory, hence the game.
He came from a similar background as Hero, from a land he helped against evil. He comes to the land of the dunes, maybe from a spell.

There he appears near the city of Raseir, just before its downfall.
He notices trouble in the city, and speaks to the authorities.
All he finds is a sick man who is the Emir, and a charismatic wizard at his side. The wizard's name is Ad Avis.

Maybe Ad Avis convinces the wizard he is working for good, against some criminal that has bewitched the Emir, and the Sultan of Shapeir.
Unfortunately he gets tied up in the whole swing of things, and is a unwilling soldier of darkness. He works with Ad Avis to perform the rituals on Shapeir, not knowing the true nature of his magic, or his motives.
He performs quests to help Ad Avis, finding components to his spells, entering WIT, with Ad Avis as a sponsor.
Eventually he sees what is going on, but hides his mind.
He might leave Raseir when Ad Avis' magic starts to take hold on the land, maybe appearing with a small role in the prequel.  

But this is just a thought. I think you could create two games in one, with two separate releases. People have done this before, and I think you know of the series. There needs to be some decent adventure adventure gaming in the market. People would buy it.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 9:08 pm 
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Many good ideas here but this one I prefer:

Erpy wrote:
- Scientist: A wizard of the non-magical variety. Instead of spells, he works with various gadgets that he has built himself. His skillset and mentality are similar to the wizard (though he'd never admit it), sans the magic skill. He has no mana points, instead, each gadget has a set amount of uses each day so using one gadget doesn't limit the application of another gadget. The amount of times each gadget can be used depends on his science skill, he increases this by tinkering with his own devices. His skill with each device determines the effectiveness of its use. He has some limited alchemy skill, but only enough to help him with his inventions. Many of his gadgets mimic known magical spells and his array of devices includes a stungun-like device to mimic dazzle, a dart gun or blunderbus for combat, a device that shoots a grappling-hook, a magnetic device, spring-loaded boots, a net-slinging device and more. Gains more benefits from eating pizza than any other class. Wants to show the world science can perfectly rival magic in terms of potential.


The reason I second scientist is that you can make him unique in gameplay. This character could rely on finding components from which he can craft things in order to help him. Anything is useful if you have the imagination and intellect. He'd be able to aquire alot more stuff than any other character and would thus be relying on items. Even things so useless as horse dung could be a component for a bomb.

Also in order to really make the guy stand out, we borrow from some of the other characters people here proposed, namely Merchant, alchemist and Ranger.

This will undoubtly be the weakest character in the game with neither parry nor dodge. He has no strength to speak of and he can't dance around much to avoid harm in an encounter. He's useless at straining himself(such as climbing or running) and he can't aim a throw.

Like the wizard, he works best at a distance. I suggest crossbow, but he could also have nets to ensnare the enemy aswell as some more advanced technology(like the stun-guns Erpy mentioned) and/or traps. This is what makes him a bit of a ranger.
Alchemy is also a good suggestion. He could weaken enemies with poison in order to bring them down to his level.

I could see him actually not being a monster-fighting class at all, like the thief(which only has to fight occasionally). What he could do to make gold is to build and sell things instead of stealing. He should also have a sense of value concerning objects so he can get wares cheaper. That's the merchant part.

All in all, this class would be for those more interested in puzzle-solving than the stat-building part of QFG. It would definately be a unique way to play the game.

I do suggest we call him Craftsman though


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 9:25 pm 
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Shantzy, I like your elaborations on the scientist character, though I would definitely keep him as "Scientist" rather than "Craftsman," simply because the whole Scientist theme is already deeply embedded in the QFG universe, what with Dr. Cranium from QFG4 and the Academy of Science in QFG5.  I think the Scientist is a great idea because it's really the only truly unique character class, in terms of both puzzle-solving, stats, and abilities, that has been suggested so far.  For those who really like the adventure game puzzle solving aspect of the QFG games, this character would be a dream come true, since he would offer new and creative solutions to dealing with the same types of Fighter/Wizard/Thief puzzles.  Also, he could have his own unique "guild," much like WIT or the various thieves guilds, except his would be the laboratory or science academy.  It would also give developers a chance to finally really work the old pizza elemental joke into gameplay.  :)


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 Post subject: 2c
PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 11:13 pm 
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I would prefer a leather coated Indy Jones type scientist, then a white coated Dr. Cranium type scientist.

Hmmm, talk about two cents. That's all I can afford though.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 11:28 pm 
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well I assume the hero would have roughly similar garb to the other character types, since the outfits in QFG games never really changed depending on class.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 1:31 pm 
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Heh. Compromises.

I said 'craftsman' because I didn't really want him to be thought of as a lab-coated Doctor Cranium. Although, yeah. The scientist guild is already introduced so that's more logical.

Lambonius wrote:
I think the Scientist is a great idea because it's really the only truly unique character class, in terms of both puzzle-solving, stats, and abilities, that has been suggested so far.  For those who really like the adventure game puzzle solving aspect of the QFG games, this character would be a dream come true, since he would offer new and creative solutions to dealing with the same types of Fighter/Wizard/Thief puzzles.  Also, he could have his own unique "guild," much like WIT or the various thieves guilds, except his would be the laboratory or science academy.  It would also give developers a chance to finally really work the old pizza elemental joke into gameplay.


Not only that but also related to the strength of other characters. The Paladin is like a fighter+ which creates a small imbalance over to the brawn-heavy. What you get is 2 strong characters, the wizard in the middle(he's still pretty tough when you get his magic abilities up), and 2 weak but in other ways cunning characters: the thief and the scientist.

Yep. It makes sense.


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 Post subject: Re: 2c
PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 8:05 pm 
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Jontas wrote:
I would prefer a leather coated Indy Jones type scientist, then a white coated Dr. Cranium type scientist.

Hmmm, talk about two cents. That's all I can afford though.


I meant metaphorically or descriptively, not literal phisical appearence.
Whoa I just quoted myself, that's just weird.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2007 3:42 pm 
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What about a Diplomat? He would talk people into doing things... It would probably be needed to include new stats like Charisma and Ettiquette to make it work.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 10:51 am 
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I've followed this thread since it started,  but I haven't bothered replying to it (wanted to.)  Hope noone minds this being revived (again)

First, adeyke's point about puzzle solving & characters was a relevant point.  I would only add this didn't apply as much to the Paladin (who was till basically a fighter), and "other" classes added could merely be "bonus" variations of the main three.  I don't really think you could really add more than 3 classes in terms of how to handle things.  maybe one more, but that would be it.  I think maybe Erpy touched on this idea first, though, so maybe I'm repeating mymself :P

Races are a fun idea, but I never got the impression that they actually were a class (sounds like early D&D with "elf" and "dwarf" classes. :P)  The only thing stopping Liontaurs from being mages or thieves was generally cultural issues (though a liontaur thief might be a tad, ah, noticable...) Same for a Katta.

Classes should also not be based on solely being a 'hybrid" (IE fighter/thief, "thief/mage, etc" because you can already basically do that (within boundaries.)  New classes should add something different.

Shapeshifter would be fun,  and could add alot of variety ("Strenght of the bear!"  "speed of the leopard!" or something like that)  but I'd imagine that animating/drawing it would be a nightmare. :P    The only thing I see is that (from qFG) shapeshifters were generally specialized ritual magic, which is kinda not what the QFG Hero-Wizard bothered with on his own.   A neat alternative idea might have been to have the Wizard in QFG3 "join" the village and become a shapeshifter (with the ability to shift between the forms.)  That would have added some much needed interest and variety to that game. Though the druid idea could still work too.

Clerics could work, depending on how you implement it, but you'd have to be careful not to tread on a magic user or paladin.  My main objection would be that while Gods do exist in QFG, they tend not to play a very active role in things, especailly solving puzzles :P

Assasin or ninja.  Neat idea, but a thief already kinda becomes like a ninja and asssasination could be a thieves skill as well (think Bruno and his knives.)  Learning those sorts of skilsl might involve things like smoke bombs or poisons, but again, those could be skills a thief could learn.  (Though assasination is rather evil....)  The whole "blackjack" thing in QFG 5 was kinda clever I thought.

I do like the "musician"  and "performer" idea.  My idea was to just call it a "bard" though to stay "traditional", since they were a bit of both.   The Bard would be your social interactin character someone who persuaded through words, stories, and music.  He'd be very athetlic and able to do tricks like juggling or knife tossing (so he's have throwing.)  He might be sneaky and good with ropes (or an acrobat later, naturally.)   But not "quite" a traditional thief either.   More of a swashbuckler as well, when combat called for.   I always figured them as carrying a rapier/sabre and a dagger (dual weapon fighting! Yeah!)  They would have magic, but a more sublt kind.  Kinda like the calm spells in QFG - ones that influenced emotions or feelings (putting someone to sleep or reducing awareness, changing perceptions or altering emotions,  improving the Bard's ability to fight or reducing the enemy's ability to fight, etc.)   He also fits in with the "Paladin" idea because Bards would be wanderers as well as a more "heroic" kind of thief.  And he could parry, of course :)

I also like the "Alchemist" or "enchanter" idea, but would combine those as I did "muscician/performer."   In QFG its always been the herbalists, alchemists, or enchanters that have been the most "good" individuals (from the Healer in Spielburg and Salim & Julanar, to Aziza the Enchantress and Erana - who created all those magical gardens.)  In concept you might think of an enchnater as being like a wizard.  But instead of a staff, they used alternate "foci" to boost their spells.  An Enchanter implanted spells on objects to achieve effects (scribing runes on walls or floors, enchanting weapons to use the "zap" spell, rings or cloaks of invisibility, etc.)  Alchemists used the ingredients/reagents they carried to boost their magic (not just creating potions, but neat powders like the powder of burning which might imitate a flame dart, but also being able to create other sorts of effects.)   Kinda like the magic in Kings' Quest 3 - you have "recipes" to uncover and make to create your "items/spells"   the items/spells might have certain numbers of uses before losing their enchantment.   An extra, interesting twist to spicec up the magic system might be some sort of window or "mini-game" involved in the creation or use of objects (blending the right ingrgedients in the right quantities, like ithe Pharmacy bit in Freddy Pharkas, or having to draw/inscribe the right symbols in the right way on objects to invoke the power.)

Rangers have always been my favorite character, and I'd have loved to be ble to be one in QFG, but I don't think it could work out because rangers (generally) have been very much "hybrid" characters in many incarnations.  The Archery idea and the "naturalist" ideas have some merit, but it wouldn't be easy to implement as puzzle solving (or in current combat.)   Maybe in combat they might use short swords/large knives  (two of them)  or a spear instead of a sword (though swords coudl work too - I still like knives though)  Maybe give the Ranger the alchemical and enchantment skills.  or, even better, combine the "ranger" concept with the Alchemist idea.  That would give a good reason to having the scavenge/forage ability - having to find/recover ingredients for spells (from monsters or plant life.)  Think of it as a tribute to the Tolkien rangers - Aragorn had "some" sort of innate magic, but mainly with objects or herbs.  (Maybe have the Spear double as a wizard's staff..hehehe*)  Other possibilities might be to talk to animals or to be able to gain sanctuary at "special" places (like the Dryad groves in the games)  Stealth wouldn't be "crucial" but might be a nice touch. Keep hi wearing leather armor in line iwth the "outdoorsman" image.


Scientist would be a "fun" class, though.  A joke kind of, but also a bit of a difficulty thing too (wouldn't fight well, can't steal or use magic, etc.)  Hard to implement in some cases (can you be a scientist without a lab?  Portta-lab?  Field scientist?)  but it would be interesting nonetheless.

Ideally I'd have tried to keep the game at no more than six characters (3 regualr classes and 3 "advanced/bonus" classes.), but the scientist one might be a fun one  (Sorta like the Shepherd in Ultiuma 8, though without sheep.)


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