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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2007 3:33 am 
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Oh I never said the genre died out, what died out was the "classic" adventure game.

All of those are great games, though I've yet to purchase my own copies. :lol


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2007 7:58 am 
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Sinister wrote:
Oh I never said the genre died out, what died out was the "classic" adventure game.

All of those are great games, though I've yet to purchase my own copies. :lol


I understand you know, sorry about that.  There is a certain "feel" to the older Sierra games I haven't felt in a game in a long time.


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 Post subject: Adventure Game
PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2007 2:06 pm 
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Roberta William pointed that out when she was on MOE team.
She said that the Adventure game would never die but would live on in different form. Many games have Adventure elements today but pure Adventure is rarer.

MOE was not exactly that form because it tried to surf on the wave caused by Diablo hack and slash style.

Not exactly my cup of tea but it was a nice try. It could have been a good hack and slash with Adventure element but it failed in both style. (poor Adventure puzzle and poor power builind)

I think that Sierra was sold while MOE was in development and that Ken William was no longuer in command. It really shorten Roberta's influence on the team. There was to many people with differents visions of what MOE was supposed to be.
Also the third party graphic engine wasn't delivered on time and there was a lot of bugs and features cut from the initial project. MOE original design suffered a lot (many levels, storyline, dynamic loading, graphics, etc).

I really like the new development in Adventure. The great story line, humor and immersive puzzle are always welcome. KQ series was always my favorite because it feel like reading a novel and traveling through a fairy tale.

I would have like MOE to be that way : humoristic, traveling into the Daventry region, immersive roman, greek or egyptian influence, logical set of puzzle and a story line with many changes and plot twists with a hero pure and brave that travel for a greater good. An involving quest.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2007 3:02 pm 
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AGP wrote:
I wrote what has to be some 40% of the entire Quest for Glory VGA game in Java (AWT) from scratch a few years ago. Took me about two months of dedicated work to do that, and that's including the time it took to rip the graphics from the engine. Given another two months, I think I could have finished it. If I only had somebody to team with, it would actually be fun for me.

Adeyke, you would know: where is that FACS message board Perdita's husband made for her after she left Sierra's?


Oh god SOMONE TAKE THIS GUY UP ON HIS OFFER! Hell you could even remaster the music and sound and maybe touch up the graphics (Not too much seeing as its awesome as it is). Its just such a pain getting the dos game to run and sound is the biggest pain of all(You need to download plugins as well as some other stuff).
Also if you port it to the new engine I think it could be modable so new classes and items could be added right?

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2007 4:28 pm 
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Piotyr wrote:
AGP wrote:
I wrote what has to be some 40% of the entire Quest for Glory VGA game in Java (AWT) from scratch a few years ago. Took me about two months of dedicated work to do that, and that's including the time it took to rip the graphics from the engine. Given another two months, I think I could have finished it. If I only had somebody to team with, it would actually be fun for me.

Adeyke, you would know: where is that FACS message board Perdita's husband made for her after she left Sierra's?


Oh god SOMONE TAKE THIS GUY UP ON HIS OFFER! Hell you could even remaster the music and sound and maybe touch up the graphics (Not too much seeing as its awesome as it is). Its just such a pain getting the dos game to run and sound is the biggest pain of all(You need to download plugins as well as some other stuff).
Also if you port it to the new engine I think it could be modable so new classes and items could be added right?


DOSBOX


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2007 4:55 pm 
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decoy_maloon wrote:
Piotyr wrote:
AGP wrote:
I wrote what has to be some 40% of the entire Quest for Glory VGA game in Java (AWT) from scratch a few years ago. Took me about two months of dedicated work to do that, and that's including the time it took to rip the graphics from the engine. Given another two months, I think I could have finished it. If I only had somebody to team with, it would actually be fun for me.

Adeyke, you would know: where is that FACS message board Perdita's husband made for her after she left Sierra's?


Oh god SOMONE TAKE THIS GUY UP ON HIS OFFER! Hell you could even remaster the music and sound and maybe touch up the graphics (Not too much seeing as its awesome as it is). Its just such a pain getting the dos game to run and sound is the biggest pain of all(You need to download plugins as well as some other stuff).
Also if you port it to the new engine I think it could be modable so new classes and items could be added right?


DOSBOX


Sound does not always work with dosbox, thus the plugin part I mentioned.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2007 5:05 pm 
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Yeah DOSBOX.. it works fine for me.  

Today we have tons of games that incorporate the Adventure Genre as part of their normal game play, and other games have had that for a while. Final Fantasy is an RPG but we could certaintle argue its also an adventure game, and so on with many RPG titles, and other games that tap into the adventure game formula.

An its a shame that adventure games in the "classic" form wont every return. But i get why they dont.. the reason came to light when i was playing KQ5 infront of my 10 year old cousin.

Cousin: "Cool! what game is that.."
Me: "King's Quest V"
Cousin: "What's it about?"
Me: "It's about a King who's looking for his captured family"

(by this time I was passing by the tree with the bees and the bear)

Cousin: "Whoa! a bear.. are you going to fight it?"
Me: "No, im going to get rid of it"
Cousin: "How, are you going to kill it?"
Me: "No, im going to throw a fish at it.. and it will go away"
Cousin: "Why?"
Me: "Cause i want to help the bees.."
Cousin: "But why give it food, why not just kill it?!"
Me: "Because I can't kill it! there is no violence in this game.. the only person who can die is the King."
Cousin: "That sucks ass!"

(and he walked away).


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2007 5:33 pm 
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Sinister wrote:
Yeah DOSBOX.. it works fine for me.  

Today we have tons of games that incorporate the Adventure Genre as part of their normal game play, and other games have had that for a while. Final Fantasy is an RPG but we could certaintle argue its also an adventure game, and so on with many RPG titles, and other games that tap into the adventure game formula.

An its a shame that adventure games in the "classic" form wont every return. But i get why they dont.. the reason came to light when i was playing KQ5 infront of my 10 year old cousin.

Cousin: "Cool! what game is that.."
Me: "King's Quest V"
Cousin: "What's it about?"
Me: "It's about a King who's looking for his captured family"

(by this time I was passing by the tree with the bees and the bear)

Cousin: "Whoa! a bear.. are you going to fight it?"
Me: "No, im going to get rid of it"
Cousin: "How, are you going to kill it?"
Me: "No, im going to throw a fish at it.. and it will go away"
Cousin: "Why?"
Me: "Cause i want to help the bees.."
Cousin: "But why give it food, why not just kill it?!"
Me: "Because I can't kill it! there is no violence in this game.. the only person who can die is the King."
Cousin: "That sucks ass!"

(and he walked away).


Final fantasy has no adventure game elements in it tho. We are talking about genre not the meaning of the word.

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 Post subject: Adventure Game
PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2007 6:19 pm 
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Sinister wrote:
Yeah DOSBOX.. it works fine for me.  

Today we have tons of games that incorporate the Adventure Genre as part of their normal game play, and other games have had that for a while. Final Fantasy is an RPG but we could certaintle argue its also an adventure game, and so on with many RPG titles, and other games that tap into the adventure game formula.

An its a shame that adventure games in the "classic" form wont every return. But i get why they dont.. the reason came to light when i was playing KQ5 infront of my 10 year old cousin.

Cousin: "Cool! what game is that.."
Me: "King's Quest V"
Cousin: "What's it about?"
Me: "It's about a King who's looking for his captured family"

(by this time I was passing by the tree with the bees and the bear)

Cousin: "Whoa! a bear.. are you going to fight it?"
Me: "No, im going to get rid of it"
Cousin: "How, are you going to kill it?"
Me: "No, im going to throw a fish at it.. and it will go away"
Cousin: "Why?"
Me: "Cause i want to help the bees.."
Cousin: "But why give it food, why not just kill it?!"
Me: "Because I can't kill it! there is no violence in this game.. the only person who can die is the King."
Cousin: "That sucks ass!"

(and he walked away).


Same here... though the non-violence might be appealing to girls but I got roll eye more than anything...
Only hard-core adventure geek really enjoy KQ now... (I hope I'm wrong)

Today killing whatever is in your way is a lot more fun than a noble act like preserving the natural equelibrium and avoiding danger while confronting an ennemy...
Killing is good, thinking is bad...


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 4:08 am 
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Piotyr, I was talking about the broad sense of the genre. Adventure games arent just "particular" formulaic creations with certain amounts of traditional gameplay to be recognized as such.

FF fantasy has adventure game elements, why?.. Because that genre is so ample its hard to negate that status to some games. Was MOE strictly RPG.. or was it Adventure? It was both and probably much more RPG than anything else.

I consider any game to have "adventure game" elements if;

The game takes the player on a journey, be it to the far reaches of a mystical unknown world or the complex interior of a manhattan condo. If there is an ample development of plot, character dialogue, the search for key items, the progression and return to areas or stages.. and the continuing change of the game world.

Those might now be a common thing in modern gaming but back in the day of Mario Bros, Zelda, Pong, Pac-Man and classic PC games.. those elements where trademarks of adventure gaming.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 6:13 am 
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Sinister wrote:
Piotyr, I was talking about the broad sense of the genre. Adventure games arent just "particular" formulaic creations with certain amounts of traditional gameplay to be recognized as such.

FF fantasy has adventure game elements, why?.. Because that genre is so ample its hard to negate that status to some games. Was MOE strictly RPG.. or was it Adventure? It was both and probably much more RPG than anything else.

I consider any game to have "adventure game" elements if;

The game takes the player on a journey, be it to the far reaches of a mystical unknown world or the complex interior of a manhattan condo. If there is an ample development of plot, character dialogue, the search for key items, the progression and return to areas or stages.. and the continuing change of the game world.

Those might now be a common thing in modern gaming but back in the day of Mario Bros, Zelda, Pong, Pac-Man and classic PC games.. those elements where trademarks of adventure gaming.


Not really. You seems to give to the adventure genre the monopoly on "having an epic story/journey". Back before Final Fantasy was released, there were games like Ultima, Dragon Warrior, or Bard's Tales which too offered epic plot that took the player on a journey, plot development, dialogue, etc. and those elements you link to adventures became the standard for the entire RPG genre. So I don't think they should be called adventure RPG just because they have story or epic journey.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 6:49 am 
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I can understand this, Sinister and I talked about this in another thread.  There are obviously plenty of adventure games out there with plenty of adventure hybrids, but that old Sierra feel is "gone." It just seems more popular to have darker games--a lot of the old dry humor is gone, a lot of the bright side of things is gone.  I think eventually the old feel will come back, lets not forget that for awhile Sierra was doing just as well as Apogee for quite some time, in fact it had sequels than Apogee did.  The times just changed, but the times always change   ;)


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 4:28 pm 
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Very true, I remember Ultima like it was yesterday (well not so much :lol )  it was released in 1980 and the subsequent series Ultima 3 (being the first one I played) was still very primitive, though like you said they had all those elements I mentioned, they didnt use them as the main element of the game, the main element like most RPGs was combat, hack and slash.

It certaintly is hard to say what are the rules for adventure games, I can't help but going back and playing King's Quest and finding common elements, but that still wouldnt serve me because that was the particular style of that series..  and perhaps Sierra of a certain "age"... but then there was Lucasarts.. and thats a whole other package.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 4:53 pm 
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"Adventure games" are puzzle and riddle oriented games usually without combat and mostly point and click, while newer forays into the genre have ditched the point and click interface but it is still an importent part of the genre.
Console gamers use the term "adventure games" in a diffrent way, zelda is considered an adventure game in console circles.
The basic formula of adventure games is in such games as manic mansion, kings quest, and space quest.
The rpg is mostly characterized by stat building(Climb long sword skill etc) and turn based battles, tho alot of rpgs have ditched the turn based formula in favor of real time or semi real time battle recently. normal rpgs from a console and pc standpoint are ultima, final fantasy, and dragon quest.
Rpgs were orignally made in the pen and paper form where rpgs are basicly alot like video game rpgs but you take the role of said character, you create him and roleplay said character as he or she acts, while this can be applyed to some video game rpgs it is lost in most.
Roleplaying game has gone through alot of diffrent meanings. First and foremost it was taking on the role of your character and being a diffrent person but now it is mostly a term used for games that have stat building and such.

I hope this clears that up. This is basicly what the terms mean in the video game communitys.

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 Post subject: Adventure Game
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 5:18 pm 
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Piotyr wrote:
"Adventure games" are puzzle and riddle oriented games usually without combat and mostly point and click, while newer forays into the genre have ditched the point and click interface but it is still an importent part of the genre.
Console gamers use the term "adventure games" in a diffrent way, zelda is considered an adventure game in console circles.
The basic formula of adventure games is in such games as manic mansion, kings quest, and space quest.
The rpg is mostly characterized by stat building(Climb long sword skill etc) and turn based battles, tho alot of rpgs have ditched the turn based formula in favor of real time or semi real time battle recently. normal rpgs from a console and pc standpoint are ultima, final fantasy, and dragon quest.
Rpgs were orignally made in the pen and paper form where rpgs are basicly alot like video game rpgs but you take the role of said character, you create him and roleplay said character as he or she acts, while this can be applyed to some video game rpgs it is lost in most.
Roleplaying game has gone through alot of diffrent meanings. First and foremost it was taking on the role of your character and being a diffrent person but now it is mostly a term used for games that have stat building and such.

I hope this clears that up. This is basicly what the terms mean in the video game communitys.


This is pretty clear but the point and click Adventure Game were a late feature. Most of the first adventure game were text based, then contrôling a character in a 3D-like world (KQ1) with command line as trigger for the different actions.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 5:42 pm 
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Exactly.. elements of Adventure Gaming have not always been the same, (depending on the time, like decoy_maloon said) while a "puzzle" driven gameplay is the best way to shortly describe an adventure game sadly thats just one of the elements.  

Because that would mean we would have to delve into the realm of what a "puzzle" constitutes, (be it navigation puzzles, items interactions, riddles)

If we used "puzzle" driven gameplay as a universal marker, then games like "Tomb Raider" would fall into the category, despite the clear contradictions.

It would be interesting to develop a "bible" of adventure gaming, but whats the fun in that.

The end point being we all recognize adventures games when we see them, though we all might have diferent views on what degree of "adventurism" new games contain.


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 Post subject: Re: Adventure Game
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 5:58 pm 
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decoy_maloon wrote:
Piotyr wrote:
"Adventure games" are puzzle and riddle oriented games usually without combat and mostly point and click, while newer forays into the genre have ditched the point and click interface but it is still an importent part of the genre.
Console gamers use the term "adventure games" in a diffrent way, zelda is considered an adventure game in console circles.
The basic formula of adventure games is in such games as manic mansion, kings quest, and space quest.
The rpg is mostly characterized by stat building(Climb long sword skill etc) and turn based battles, tho alot of rpgs have ditched the turn based formula in favor of real time or semi real time battle recently. normal rpgs from a console and pc standpoint are ultima, final fantasy, and dragon quest.
Rpgs were orignally made in the pen and paper form where rpgs are basicly alot like video game rpgs but you take the role of said character, you create him and roleplay said character as he or she acts, while this can be applyed to some video game rpgs it is lost in most.
Roleplaying game has gone through alot of diffrent meanings. First and foremost it was taking on the role of your character and being a diffrent person but now it is mostly a term used for games that have stat building and such.

I hope this clears that up. This is basicly what the terms mean in the video game communitys.


This is pretty clear but the point and click Adventure Game were a late feature. Most of the first adventure game were text based, then contrôling a character in a 3D-like world (KQ1) with command line as trigger for the different actions.


Ah yes I forgot about those, but you have to admit that the bulk of adventure games are point and click.
And if you just throw the command line games into my post then its pretty much perfect.

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 Post subject: Re: Adventure Game
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 6:08 pm 
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Piotyr wrote:
Ah yes I forgot about those, but you have to admit that the bulk of adventure games are point and click.
And if you just throw the command line games into my post then its pretty much perfect.


Yeah point and click was the golden age... there was so many games in the early 90s... Sierra, Lucas Art and Westwood were the best.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 6:14 pm 
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Point and Click are certaintly the bulk now.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 6:18 pm 
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I wish more games would go point and click, its like you can have a 3d sidescroller why not a 3d point and click? Even old genres made for 2d can benefit from 3d.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 7:35 pm 
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Yeah, I like the idea. It works well for sidescrollers.. i'd like to see some 3d remakes.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 12:55 am 
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Quote:
Console gamers use the term "adventure games" in a diffrent way, zelda is considered an adventure game in console circles.


I see games like Zelda, Metal Gear, Castlevania, Resident Evil and Metroid more like action-adventure myself, as action count for a significant part of the gameplay, so does the exploration part.

But I find adventure game hard to define as the line is very thin between adventure games and puzzle games. One could say it's the presence of a journey or a storyline that separate adventure from puzzle, but I've seen a lot of adventure game with barely existant storyline which I still consider adventure games, the Goblins series come to my mind here. And there is also some puzzle games which include stories and they still remain puzzle games.

One could point out that puzzle games always require the same method to solve the puzzles. But then how would you define adventure games where most or all puzzles are solved with use item on item, discuss with NPC to collect clues and trigger new events or the Myst kind of game where all you do is clicking on hotspots to triggers solutions?

One could say it's the exploration, however there are a lot of adventure games which are completly linear, and where the player is simply proded forward to new room and a new puzzle as soon a puzzle is solved.

Very hard to define. You know what is an adventure game and what is a puzzle game, but they are hard to define with words.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 6:39 am 
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Heh. Interest in hack-n-slash is starting to fade.  (As far as I'm concerned, PS can have all those games... they're meant for when you're so lazy that you want to sleep while you play)  I think if most of the people who's crazy about those type of games played them for as long as we did (all the way from the original Wolfenstein 3D games) they'd be as bored with them as I am. Yeah... better graphics, more weapons, more blood... but still the same game.

Don't get me wrong, when I'm in a truelly lazy mood and simply want to sit back and have a brain-stall, I play either the old Mortal Kombat games or any of the millions of similar 3D shooter-games. (I still enjoy those old MK games. :) )

What I'm not certain of is what this thread is about???? Do you want AGDI to make their own KQ3 or not?


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 Post subject: KQ3
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 3:03 pm 
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I think an adventure game like the KQ serie could be great with 3d room and Static Camera because with a free camera you waste so much time controlling the character. Better have a static camera and click on the hot spot for interaction.

Gronagor wrote:
What I'm not certain of is what this thread is about???? Do you want AGDI to make their own KQ3 or not?


LOL yeah...

I really liked KQ2+ because the story line was great (I did not enjoy being manipulate by the Count for a least 1/5 of the game and at the ending).
I liked the glue that hold the other KQ (althought I though that seeing the future KQ3 prequel and KQ8 conclusion was cheating the storyline and just a candy thrown at the fans). The art was great, the plot was great, the puzzles were logical and fun to solve. There was much more in this game than it appears and I vow my respect to the game designers.

I would have prefer a KQ3 remake with quality closer to what AGDI team do. Building games this high quality in those conditions is almost unique.

I also really respect the Infamous Entertainment work. But I would give a 90% to AGDI KQ2+ and 70% to Infamous Entertainment KQ3 because there was quite a load of bugs and glitches. Interface was not perfect, the art was inconsistent and the game was lacking in other ways (using screen shot of KQ5 in the cutscene for instance).

In an ideal world I would like all the KQ games with a remake possibility (KQ3-KQ4-MOE) to be done by AGDI. But it is a lot of work and I think it is a waste of time. I think all remakes should be left as a "trial by fire" for all the new communities that want to start in the game industry and then progress to the other level after proving their worth... just like AGDI have done with Ken William's consel. They start Himalaya and now their in the game business.

Thumbs up.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 10:51 pm 
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Quote:
In an ideal world I would like all the KQ games with a remake possibility (KQ3-KQ4-MOE) to be done by AGDI.


LOL!.. as a member of IA, that hurts my tiny evil little heart. :lol

Honestly though, we learned a lot from making Kq3, and it had its number of flaws, but we'll get much better with age. Who knows we might even surprise you..

As for AGDI making remaking KQ3, it would obviously contain some plot tie ins with Kq2+, but the original Kq3 was the first "plot driven" game in the franchise's history so I doubt AGDI would want to deviate from the story too much.

All in all, I would welcome a KQ3 remake from AGDI, as you know.. when you make games you get little joy of actually playing them, because of all the testing and zero surprises.. So it would be fun to play a KQ3 that "varied" a bit..


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