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 Post subject: Probably just an invitation for insults, but still . . . .
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 4:17 am 
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Well, after a brief private message from the individual who locked the last thread I started, I thought I'd post a small reply here.

The PM said, essentially, that this was not about egos or maturity or anything, but rather a feeling that I was coming in, arms flailing, hostile and demanding results when I'd put in, probably a full 4 hours doing the strenuous work of looking at a website over the years, while the designers involved had put in, say, 400 hours of much more grueling tasks.  This was the concept, anyway.


I have some experience in coding myself.  I've done scripting for video games before, and I have some concept of the complexity.  I programmed dialogue for mods for some existing games and worked about 30 hours for a small and . . . well, lackluster project, which no one glanced at, cared about, etc.  Yet I had devoted immense amount of time to it.  And I devoted more time, and more time, and then just gave up.  Probably spent about 100 hours coding with very little progress (except for a few trivial lessons learned).  Regardless, I'm not saying that I know exactly what the game developers are going through/doing.  Only that I have a glimpse at the notion.

I didn't attempt to enter the forum with hostility.  I wanted to know if the project was still going, because from what I had seen, there were no signs of life on the main page.  Now, however, after a more careful review, I see that they are from a far more recent time than I had thought (and mention Alpha testing), that some excellent MP3s have been provided, and that there are signs of active work.  I hadn't looked through the website thoroughly (something that was due almost entirely to my lack of patience).  My post was not intended as a hostile demand for results, throwing insults at the individuals working hard on the project.  It was two years of frustration built up.  In the same way that . . . well, say that Final Fantasy: Advent Children fans were furious when "their" video didn't come out until a year and a half past the date of release, I was very frustrated.    Not that the complaints and fury are excused in either case, but it is expected (I feel, at least to some degree), and when deadlines aren't met, when expectations aren't met, and when nothing "solid" is announced, individuals may get frustrated.

Individuals on the outside (i.e., me) generally fail to see that they are not the only ones frustrated.  Were it possible to bend code and gain all the free time (and lost resources) necessary to have completed the project at the estimated date, every designer would have taken that route twice over.  I apologize for any sense of hostility I had.  Again, I was only attempting to find some information.

It is easy to feel that people are "idiots, newbs, crack whores," whatever, because they're demanding something out of place, but when expectations aren't met, it will happen frequently.  I've been checking the "Quest for Glory 2" page for a couple of years now, and no real updates have been made there.  Not that this is entirely your error, and after a more thorough review of the site (as mentioned), I found I was in error to make some of the comments I did.

HOWEVER, this does not mean that "insult games" should begin.  Someone comes in and wants to know when the video game has come out, instead of welcoming them to a community and telling them to "shut up and be patient like the rest of us," you bash them down and automatically reject them.  If I'm not mistaken, threads like mine probably happen pretty often, and your response is probably the same.  You're not helping your community, you're not helping the people who come here, you're not getting fans, and you may even be losing people who could have helped with the project.

My post was not . . . well, it was stupid.  It's sad to see that there was an automatic reaction (defensive and harah) with so little delay.  Only one person actually had anything to actually respond.  Again, I'm not justifying my post, but if instead of "You suck, you stupid newb, get out of our community," you'd said "There are a lot of posts on this subject already.  If you want detailed information, we have a search function and the designer journals have the major news.  In summary, though, we're not dead.  In fact, we're in Alpha Testing!"  Would that have been so rough?  It would have answered the question, and brought a curious fan in.  Bashing someone just . . .well, it just defends an ego.  No matter how much that ego deserves to be defended (especially from some stupid newb with stupid questions), it really doesn't actually give much progress.

Yeah, I know this long, long post doesn't have a point to it, but still, I thought I may as well post it here.


[[P.S.  I know HTML, Graphic Design, some coding in WeiDu and have used toolsets for scripting, and I'd be glad to help with some website updates.  I actually work for a company that creates websites, and I can help with some of the "main page" complaints that I personally had.]]


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 4:53 am 
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Kinda off-topic, but would you happen to be the same RobFaeth who modded "Prelude to Salanus (v1.6)"?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 5:08 am 
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It's all good, dude.

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 Post subject: Well.
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 5:08 am 
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I have some experience lurking (and occasionally posting) on forums, and I'm thinking this isn't going to end well.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 1:10 pm 
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400 hours? LOL. It takes more than that to script even half the game.

Heh, I agree that "insulting games" don't belong here, which is why I locked the thread. Though I don't think they were particularly unprovoked.

Your initial post, while extremely hostile, did not insult anyone individually. But, as I tried to explain in my PM, these sorts of posts are insulting in an indirect way. If a game developer, weary after hours of hard work, checks into a forum and sees a post from a new visitor complaining about his impatience, the broken promises to him and his hardships, what he'll be saying in the game developer's mind is: "I don't care how hard the work is, it can't possibly be as hard as the waiting I'm going through because of you." Being called a (insert your favourite expletitive or sexual slang term here) isn't fun, but usually it's also pretty impersonal, hence it's easily shrugged off. When someone tells you: "How long is it gonna take? You're not working hard enough on it, are you? Just finish it already. Think about ME for a second", he puts himself into the victim's role and in doing so, trivialises and downplays your efforts, hard work, blood, sweat and tears. I prefer being called a name than having my efforts and work ethic insulted because those things are personal. Most people who've "been there" probably feel the same. Hence, you get a much stronger reaction than you'd expect. In a way, this was simply a case of the "do unto others..."-rule being applied. You mentioned you were just venting? I believe you. But here's the thing...so was the rest.

I realize that this kind of thing isn't the best way to welcome people into the community. But if someone walks up to me, calls me names, I insult him back and he says: "I could have been your friend if you hadn't insulted me.", I'd be left wondering why I'd want someone who introduces himself with barbs to be my friend in the first place. I'm not expecting fans here to be brownnosers, fan-boyz and worshippers of the ground we walk upon. I do expect fans to show respect, even (this is important) when they're NOT immediately given what they want. What use are fans who are only nice to you when they feel their interests are being served and get hostile the second things get delayed? Why would we want those kind of people around in the first place?

You want to get a question respectfully answered? Great, just go out of your way to ask it respectfully. Want to join a community in a good light? Great, just go out of your way to appear somewhat supportive or at least nice. I'm personally not someone who holds a grudge for very long. But on the internet, where we can only judge people by the things they post, defining yourself in a respectful way is very important. You're not the only person who has to cope with frustrations from time to time.

What comes around....etcetera, etcetera.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 3:16 pm 
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Understood, Erpy.  I've learned my lesson, I think.

And . . . heh . . . yes.  I am the individual who programmed Prelude to Salanus (most recent version being v1.6).   Did you actually PLAY that?  How incredibly random.  That was the "culmination" of my programming career, right before I decided it just wasn't for me.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 5:10 pm 
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Welcome aboard.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2007 2:30 am 
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Yes, I played that. I'm the modder for "To Hell and Back" and I recalled seeing your name as one of the participants/voters.

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 Post subject: I love forgetting old passwords, don't you?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2007 6:39 am 
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Disclaimer: I'm making no demands, requests or judgments in this post.  Just offering an observation.

I understand that the devs/mods et all have the opinion that the Dev Journal is for Real Accomplishments.  I understand this because I've been casually lurking the forum for either around four years or (when this place used to be Tierra)+1 years, whichever is more recent.  I get it.  "It's done when it's done, shut up, leave us alone crazy fanboys or we'll beat you with a stick!"  ;)

Here're the two hitches with the current system:
1.  The casual observer doesn't know what's happening.  I don't know how much you care about this point in-and-of itself, but it leads to the next point.
2.  I realize that it's a waste of valuable time to update the Dev Journal with a piddly "Everything's okay [string of babble that I wouldn't understand about some aspect of making the game]."  However -- It's also a waste of time to reply to a kvetch-y post with another kvetch-y post.  That creates all kinds of wonderful hurt feelings/bad press which requires additional time to undo (should one choose to so do.)  Would it be better to waste time proactively addressing the issue (and probably not make a difference anyway) or reactively worsening it?

That's the observation.  Hopefully it came across as intended -- without demands, requests or judgments.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2007 9:11 am 
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Yeah, I remember to Hell and Back!  I can't remember the details . . . it's been a while.  Hey, looks like you got an honourable mention and a personal interview!  Nice.  The best I got was a random e-mail about 9 months after the module's creation asking me if there would be more to the game.  That was kinda cool.  Anywho.

And I agree about the most recent comment made by our lurker.  Came out of hiding semi-maybe-to-defend me?  How nice.

Again, I don't want to offend anyone (as everyone here seems to be specifying since my well-invited verbal beating), but it's true that the casual visitor to the website just ends up very LOST as to the status of things.  You really have to start searching thoroughly in order to find an answer to the big, normal questions.  Not that this should be out of the question for the people who want to be involved, but it could definitely help avoid a lot of needless repition if a couple alterations were made to the system.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2007 9:12 am 
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To be honest, if I was a member of AGD, I just wouldn't bother reading this forum much until the game's done.  What else are people gonna post except "when it's gonna be finished?"  :p

As for updating the journals - I dunno if that's necessary, particularly in the de-bugging stage - besides, the only news I really care about is the actual release of the game.  Until then, I'll just continue in my habit of checking this site periodically for new developments.  Sure it's been a long wait, but it's hardly an imposition to pop back here once in a while.

Bottom line is, it's pretty impressive that AGD is even bothering to finish this "free" project when they've already got a commercial game out.  They've already made the leap from fan-ish games to original creations, so in a sense QFGII is a sort of throwback/holdover from their earlier days.  Right?  So I say, give 'em all the time they need to finish it.

(Incidentally, it took me five years to write a novel that can be read in three hours.  Not that many people have read it, but anyway it taught me something about semi-thankless hard work...)


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2007 11:10 am 
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Quote:
Here're the two hitches with the current system:
1.  The casual observer doesn't know what's happening.  I don't know how much you care about this point in-and-of itself, but it leads to the next point.
2.  I realize that it's a waste of valuable time to update the Dev Journal with a piddly "Everything's okay [string of babble that I wouldn't understand about some aspect of making the game]."  However -- It's also a waste of time to reply to a kvetch-y post with another kvetch-y post.  That creates all kinds of wonderful hurt feelings/bad press which requires additional time to undo (should one choose to so do.)  Would it be better to waste time proactively addressing the issue (and probably not make a difference anyway) or reactively worsening it?


Yes, but there's another hitch with your suggestion. Not every single person cruises onto the forums when they can't find a clear indicator of recent progress in the designer journals. Only a small percentage probably does. Of that small percentage, there's also probably a percentage who searches recent posts for similar "when is it done?"-material and assumes that when one of those threads is fairly recent, posting a clone thread will only result in clone replies.

There's several fan projects I've been following over the years and none of them ever came with an actual release date. In fact, many times there were no design journals either or merely design journals that said they got a new site or a rehashed forum. (which is nice for the regulars, but uninteresting for the casual visitor) My own reaction is to assume that whatever the status of a project is...there's nothing I can do to change it. If it's dead, nothing I can post will resurrect it. If it's still progressing, me posting will not make a difference. I sometimes even assume the project is dead. If it's not, I'll hear about it in time and until that time I'm not getting upset over it. I figure lots of people do the same.

We get like 1 of these posts every two months or so. If we'd take start taking steps to counter these kinds of posts by posting bug trackers or so once a week, it'd still take more time and planning on our part than the occasional "when is it done" post would take.

Anti-social? Hmmm.... perhaps a little bit, yeah. Thing is, when you're in the second half of a game's development process, you become a bit numbed and indifferent. You no longer want to spend time touting your progress, you want one and only one thing...finish the darn thing as soon as you can. Word.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 1:10 am 
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Something I just wanted to point out that I didn't see addressed in the locked thread. The main reason for QFG2 not being out 2 years ago as planned was because AGDI decided that they wanted to develop and produce Al Emmo and the Lost Dutchman's Mine under their commercial banner, Himalaya Studios. While both were in full production at the same time (or so I believe judging from simple observation), they were striving to get Al Emmo complete and released first before finishing up QFG2.

Now, I'm sure most people will say that I have a tendancy toward giving people the benefit of the doubt, at least moreso than others. However, it's easy to see how RobFaeth's post could be interpreted as inflammatory, especially to the very delicate sensibilities this forum inherently adheres to. This said, I'm pretty sure the situation was allowed to get out of hand. This isn't to take Rob or the Admins to task for either of their actions. From my observation, had the responses been a tad more diplomatic all around, this wouldn't have happened. Truthfully, this thread on its own is teetering on the brink, with numerous people already engaging in the "let's play who's got it worse and is more mature and intelligent" game that eventually leads to bad feelings being traded.

I don't think time needs to be wasted on bad feelings. Rob is an intelligent guy who seems like he knows what it's like to do some development. Nobody's questioning AGDI's knowledge of development, either. I don't particularly see why this has to continue on a second longer. Now that all misunderstandings are resolved, we can continue with our regularly scheduled anticipation of QFG2. That's it, Amen, I'm out!

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2007 8:24 am 
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Hi long time no see.

I have an idea for you AGDI guys..and girls and it should work. Why not change the first AGDI page to forums page. Nobody will miss the news page since it is nothing to read new news there. I did that on my own homepage because I was to "lazy" to bring up new news and some people asked me are this site dead. Of course not. The forums is still alive and we too. So I just changed the first page into forums page and beleave me it worked just fine for anyone. Nobody missed the news page. This will save us many page flips. And it will show to anyone that the site is still alive.

I hope I have helped you to solve problem with that idea of mine.  You can always change the first page anytime. But who cares about the first page now since it is so seldom updated now? Anyone? See what I mean? ;)


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2007 6:15 pm 
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Kurt, as someone else mentioned, many people post hair-triggered comments without putting much thought into the fact that development teams such as ourselves get overworked, especially when we're not doing this for financial gain and when we are equally disappointed that the game was not released when it was first intended to be. The main reason it is being delayed isn't soley because we were working on Al Emmo, but because the features we're adding to QFG2VGA are good and they take time to implement. Had we released the game back in 2004, quite frankly, it probably would have looked and played like shit. I loaded up an old demo the other day from 2004, and I couldn't believe how out-of-date it looked and felt. Suffice to say, I'm very glad we didn't cave and release an inferior build 3 years ago. The result of the extra work that has been put in over these additional years will be well-worth the wait. You'll see.

Now, if someone posts here and gets impatient and cannot be bothered spending a few seconds thinking of a decent way to make an inquiry and then begins to cast accusations and create conspiracy theories (such as us not releasing the game just to annoy people), then that's a little ridiculous.  But if someone starts riddling that same post with cursing directed at us for not being fast enough, then that just pisses me off and I have no qualms in sending their mis-directed babble right back in their direction. Yeah, there are probably more polite ways to handle it, but it feels oh, so satisfying. Plus Erpy's the pacifist around here.  :evil

That said, welcome to the forums, RobFaeth. I understand that people can feel lost upon arrival here, but as with any forum or FAQ, it doesn't take very long to catch up on the latest news if you simply follow the common rule for any website; browse the forums for a short while to see if any similar posts have already been made. We don't usually update the designer journals just to say that minor progress has been made, since as Erpy mentioned, it's just another thing to worry about. It may not seem like a big deal, but at this point, the game is overdue, people are rightfully wondering where it is, we're also trying to make a living so we can keep doing this in the future. Taking all of that into consideration, we believe that actually spending ALL of our free time on finishing this game is far more efficient than writing journals and updates about it. I mean what is the worst that can happen anyway? Maybe you'll assume that the game is vapourware and then go away feeling disappointed. But when the game's eventually released (and it will be), what will that matter? You'll still get to play it. I believe everyone else will think the wait was worth it also, when the game is finished sooner as a result of us concentrating solely on it.

However, one thing I can say with 99.9% certainty, barring some freak misfortune from occuring, is that this will definitely be the year of QFG2's release.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2007 11:26 pm 
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Knock knock are anybody listening to me? :cry  I was giving you a great idea in yesterday how to solve that problem of yours. Just change the first AGDI page into forums page and nobody will complain or ask about "Is this site dead? I think many people use this forums page as the first page now already because the news page has nothing more interesting to discuss about. Beside I think you should quit with that news page because we read all of the latest news here in this forums more than ever now.

So why keep up a headline news page when your latest news and yes even the headline news can already ben read here in this forums?

But ok just keep  up the good work on your games and ignore me like always. |I


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2007 2:41 am 
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That's not a very feasible idea, Fribbi. If they changed the news page to the forums it would be very misleading, raise a lot more questions, eliminate the need for an entire website (when everything they can find would be on the forums), confuse fans, and cause more questions and make things generally worse, in my eyes. It's just not very logical. The forums are for the fans to discuss AGDI and ask questions regarding them and their games not for AGDI to release updates. That's the path they've taken it seems, anyway. And it works. Maybe you read the forums more than the page but that doesn't mean others do.

Actually, I think changing the website to the forums would really make people think the site was dead. Moreso than they already do. What's happening now works. If it ain't broke don't fix it.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2007 5:18 am 
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While I disagree with Fribbi's idea as well, for some of the reasons you raised, I also don't see how it would make people think the site was more dead.  The forums are active, unlike the main page.

Frankly, on the main page, where it says "Click the 'Designer Journals' link below for regular news updates." the word regular should be replaced with major.  Considering that the last journal was a third of a year ago, it's hardly regular, is it?

More than that though, on the journal page, AGDI should specify what was said here: that the news updates are strictly for any major news, that small updates/changes won't be announced and even that months between updates is normal.  That, better worded, would save a lot of hassle on the forums.  We could simply point people to that and the AGDs wouldn't need to feel inclined to post here to defend themselves (saving more seconds to put into game development).


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2007 5:57 am 
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Just a thought. Since the developers would rather get the game done than write minor updates and the visitors crave to see such updates, perhaps someone else in the team who isn't working on the game could devote time to the development journals? Like Angelus or Vamp, if they aren't busy?

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2007 6:17 am 
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I'm just going by how I would think if the page was redirected to the forums. It kind of gives the message of "Hey, we're dead, talk to the people in the forums cuz that's all there is anymore." Maybe not everyone would feel that way I don't know.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2007 6:48 am 
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Gamecreator: That's not a bad idea. I doubt it would really stem the flow of inquiries though. People post because they're getting impatient, and I doubt that re-wording of a couple of words that nobody probably looks at anyway will make a huge difference. But still, I guess it's kind of misleading and should be changed.

Swift: That's how it was supposed to be with Relight maintaining the site and making journal updates, but he's hardly around anymore which is why the regular updates dropped off and why I started making less frequent ones instead. Such updates really need to be made by somebody with a good knowlegde of the game's progress so that they can update the designer journals self-sufficiently. When we have to do it ourselves, it becomes yet another task that we didn't account for.  We really have nobody with a full overview of the project who could give such updates at the moment, other than Erpy and myself. We're also the only ones working on the game presently, so our time is better spent getting it finished.

And no, the front page won't be redirected to the forums, as that would draw attention away from the website even more. It's not hard to update the designer journals and we're not trying to hide the fact that they haven't been updated in a while. There's simply been nothing worth reporting and the current update is still valid.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2007 8:14 am 
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I would love to write a journal update about QFG2 VGA but as AGD2 has said not even I know much about the development progress.

Even if I did I havn't even played QFG before lol :o

I'm more of a KQ guy  ;)


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2007 8:53 am 
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Yeah, figured as much. Ah well, next project then.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 8:08 am 
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Angelus? What? Ok. I think you still have some time to play QfG1 before no2 comes out!! Quickly!


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 6:05 pm 
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Ok I can understand you guys..and girls. I just thougth you were getting tired of people when they are always asking you for a new updates for the newspage wich is on the first page. But like everybody can see here the latest news are are already here in this forums so there is no need to waste time rewriting the same news on a newspage. I still think it is so pointless and big waste of time.  So I thougth by getting rid of the newspage you will get rid of those complainings of lack of news.  :D

I was only trying to help you with this issue nothing else. But like I said keep continue to ignore me and my ideas like you always do.  >:

You can always open the news page again when you have finally more time to say anything on that. But if you like it like it is now then it is ok.
I will never again give you more useless ideas now. And that is a promise. |I  ;)


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