Quest for an......Update

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Katta Master
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Quest for an......Update

#1 Post by Katta Master » Tue Apr 17, 2007 4:17 am

Hi Guys,

It's about that time, to add a few lines to that magical web space that
keep us fans so patient and dedicated.....yes the designer journals!

I know your almost done, near the finish line, after so many years of toil and frankly we'd like to hear about it!

It's been close to three months since the last entry....so with out the usual moaning of when it's going to be done blah blah etc....

How about an update!

or even better a demo like the guys over TSL did... now that would really shut people up!

Demo's are great because there allowed to be buggy and show the wonderful progress that's been made and give everyone a nice happy 6mth cooling period for expectations....enough to stop people asking you about the finishing line.

But for me an update will do just fine  :)

Infact it will have me rolling in the isles  :rollin

Cheers
Katta Master

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#2 Post by Blackthorne519 » Tue Apr 17, 2007 7:09 am

I'm pretty sure, as far as development, they're just going through the final Alpha bug lists.  AGD2 actually posted in one of these threads and gave up a bit of info.  I'm sure someone will find it and link it - I would, but I'm tired right now.


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#3 Post by Swift » Tue Apr 17, 2007 8:13 am


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#4 Post by DonQuixote » Tue Apr 17, 2007 8:41 am

I used to only read the newsletters for awhile, then I started to read the designer journals a couple of years ago, and recently I signed up on the forums.  I actually think this is the best place for updates, heck, it's fun too.   ;)

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#5 Post by Alistair » Tue Apr 17, 2007 2:04 pm

Assuming the game is in final alpha stages, I think a demo is a lousy idea. If you want a demo, play the original :)

Why? Well, I presume to release a demo you have to work hard making sure it's perfect and bug-free, and that sounds like a lot of hard work that would be better served generally making sure the game is releasable and bug-free. Sounds like an unnecessary next step. Most of us already have a feel for what the music will be like, the art, and where AGDI are taking the game (minigames from the planned original that were axed, etc).

I say, just keep on keeping on, and we'll see a game eventually. I don't think there's any argument that the game's long overdue, like other major fangame projects (SQ7, which hosts my website, is another fine example of that). That's not a criticism per se, rather an observation. My own website is way overdue on legions of projects, and the reason is what Erpy's said before (I think it was Erpy, anyway)- we don't get paid for working on Sierra game remakes or fan sites, and therefore, we don't work on them 24/7.

But anyway. My point being, although the game's overdue, people will still want to play it in droves (and rightly so). But let's not delay this any more, and waste time with needless demos (it's not like a game noone's heard of before, so a demo is needed to raise awareness for what the game will be like).

I simply look forward to the game's inevitable release. I just wish everyone associated with AGDI good luck in their endeavours, and hopefully alpha testing isn't too tedious :)

- Alistair

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#6 Post by Erpy » Tue Apr 17, 2007 9:15 pm

How about an update!

or even better a demo like the guys over TSL did... now that would really shut people up!

Demo's are great because there allowed to be buggy and show the wonderful progress that's been made and give everyone a nice happy 6mth cooling period for expectations....enough to stop people asking you about the finishing line.
I disagree.

First of all, about the shutting up part...I'm not so sure. We thought creating a teaser-trailer would ensure people would never ask for "samples" anymore and for a long time they didn't, but the effect wasn't permanent.

Let's face it...people aren't demanding a demo or samples because they have no clue about what the game's gonna be like...most know QFG2 quite well. People want samples because it in some way replicates the feeling that people will get when the game's released. By giving samples like screenshots or trailers or demos away, we're releasing very small parts of the game, bit by bit, instead of everything at once.

I also disagree that demos are allowed to be buggy...don't take this personal, but adventure game players are some of the most picky people in the world and many will eagerly jump on every small imperfection they can spot...and drag it kicking and screaming into the public spotlight. And why not...it gives people the impression they're helping beta testing the game, even if they were told in advance that stuff was temporary to begin with. Even TSL got flack for issues in their demo...I have no reason to believe people wouldn't hold any bugs in a demo against us.

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#7 Post by TribeHasSpoken » Thu Apr 19, 2007 3:04 am

Erpy wrote: I also disagree that demos are allowed to be buggy...don't take this personal, but adventure game players are some of the most picky people in the world and many will eagerly jump on every small imperfection they can spot...and drag it kicking and screaming into the public spotlight. And why not...it gives people the impression they're helping beta testing the game, even if they were told in advance that stuff was temporary to begin with. Even TSL got flack for issues in their demo...I have no reason to believe people wouldn't hold any bugs in a demo against us.
Exactly right, Erpy. We learned some hard, but necessary, lessons about how to show off our work after the demo release. It doesn't just apply to fangames either. I think Bungie have run an excellent PR campaign for the upcoming release of Halo 3 through the use of seven minute videos on different aspects of the game design, slowly revealing more and more little details as the release approaches. Yet, despite disclaimer after disclaimer on their website that the game footage shown is all pre-alpha (including a lot with no textures applied to the models yet), I keep reading comments about how bad it looks.

The one thing I fear most in gaming PR is that the audience gets an incorrect idea of exactly what the game is going to be. "Different than expected", no matter how high the quality of the final product is, will almost always be received badly by the audience. How to prevent this without giving away everything about the game is something I still have to learn.

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#8 Post by Alistair » Thu Apr 19, 2007 4:52 am

I guess, don't spruik your game and tell the world how wonderful it's going to be, and release a demo that doesn't really highlight that image.

I think QFG2VGA was in hindsight announced too far in advance, especially given how seriously the team would turn to their commercial enterprise (I think that's a good thing, BTW, I'm just saying it wasn't well thought through).

I think it's reasonable for people to expect a release, but that said, I don't think that a demo would do much, for the reasons I said before.


As for Halo 3, I think the average person doesn't know what 'alpha' stages are. Regardless of disclaimers (which I'm sure most people see and think 'boring!' and skip past), the terms need to be spelled out clearly.


Alpha demos/previews are pretty obviously a bad idea. Why? First impressions last, regardless of how correct or informed they are. Think the Al Emmo demo reviews (although obviously that wasn't an alpha one, I'm just saying about first impressions).

Jsut keep people in the loop, and give some previews when there's something to preview. If I had to make a suggestion to the AGDI team, it would be to keep people in the loop of where the game's at. From what I can tell that's happening pretty adequately anyway thoguh.

Keep the good work up folks.

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#9 Post by Gronagor » Thu Apr 19, 2007 7:08 am

Hmmm... can't remember, but I think QfG2 was the first game AGDI started with, but decided along the way to finish KQ1&2 first. But I could be wrong...

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#10 Post by Katta Master » Thu Apr 19, 2007 10:59 am

Hmmm perhaps your right, certain members of the Adventure Game Community would paw through a demo with a fine tooth comb.

Personally though because the game has been in development for the last 6-7 years, i guess i would just like to see a small slice of what's been accomplished so far and i wouldn't be fussed about bugs because i know they would be ironed out before the full release, as is evident in your other titles.

QF2 rates as my all time favorite game - i own the original and have played it  more times than i can remember along with the rest of the QFG series and I've made sure i haven't played it awaiting this release, as i want to try forget as much as possible, so it feels like a new experience not just new graphics.

I know it's a pain to do updates etc... gets in the way of development, real life and also trying to think of things to put in to the article also can be a headache, but it's what keeps people interested and keeps them believing that you will finish the project and you have to admit, you've kept a lot people interested for a long time, that in itself is an achievement.

So forgive the pushy "I want to see a demo and update...blah blah" stuff, it is merely an expression of
"I can't wait" syndrome that everyone else seems to suffer when visiting the forums.

Do what you think is best, not what everyone else thinks!
It seems to be the key to your success so far.

Thanks for the link to the update BT & Swift    :)

It looks like the wait won't be much longer anyway!
(Fingers Crossed)

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#11 Post by Erpy » Thu Apr 19, 2007 11:52 am

Hmmm perhaps your right, certain members of the Adventure Game Community would paw through a demo with a fine tooth comb.

Personally though because the game has been in development for the last 6-7 years, i guess i would just like to see a small slice of what's been accomplished so far and i wouldn't be fussed about bugs because i know they would be ironed out before the full release, as is evident in your other titles.
That's cool you wouldn't be concerned about glitches, but I'm afraid it's generally considered a poor decision to release something that has "work in progress" in there. Not just for glitches but also for design decisions that some people may disagree with.

Anyway, did you watch the QFG2VGA teaser trailer? It does contain plenty of stuff and the main difference between it and a demo is that a demo places you in control. It should be in the news section.

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#12 Post by Katta Master » Thu Apr 19, 2007 12:19 pm

I have - and it was excellent !

In fact the quality looked unbelievable.

I also checked out the Space Quest II demo / trailer by IA.....
(found in the comments section i might add)

It had almost nothing to do with Space Quest II...showed one screen which
was almost certainly taken from Conquests of Camelot or it's sequel...

but it had me buzzed -

It had sprites!!!   :D

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#13 Post by rich_eter » Thu Apr 19, 2007 11:29 pm

Yes... it sure did. :D

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#14 Post by Katta Master » Fri Apr 20, 2007 9:14 am

Yes... it sure did. Happy
Pity they didn't work a bit more on the other sprite eh...  ;)

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#15 Post by Blackthorne519 » Fri Apr 20, 2007 3:06 pm

Actually, we did.  Heh.  A lot more went into that demo than one might think!

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#16 Post by rich_eter » Fri Apr 20, 2007 10:39 pm

Katta Master wrote:
Yes... it sure did. Happy
Pity they didn't work a bit more on the other sprite eh...  ;)
Which other sprite, friend?

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#17 Post by Klytos » Sat Apr 21, 2007 3:22 am

Apple has the right idea. Don't announce anything, just release a new product onto the market.

Erpy, as usual, is 100% correct. Adventure game players will eagerly jump on every small imperfection they can spot...and drag it kicking and screaming into the public spotlight.

A good example is that SQ2 joke demo IA released a few weeks ago. Some people actually complained that Roger was wrong. But in actual fact, that Roger is ripped from SQ4 completely. This sort of rubbish just bores me, I'd rather be working on my games or watching the football with my girl while drinking beer instead.

Personally, I hate announcing games, I hate demos, screen shots, PR for fangames. The whole works. It's all a total waste of time. Too many things change over the course of creation of the game to make this a worthwhile exercise.

In my view it would be better to never announce anything and just release it when it's done.

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#18 Post by Anonymous Game Creator 2 » Sat Apr 21, 2007 6:13 am

Either that, or announce it only in the final stages when you know you'll have complete control over the release date, and you know for certain that delays won't rear their ugly head.  That's pretty much what we did with KQ1VGA; we only announced it when the game was already 90% complete and the release was a month or so away.  Nobody knew anything about it beforehand, so it came as a pleasant surprise to people.  KQ2VGA wasn't really an issue, because, with a lot of hard work, we managed to remain on target with that one, and the project only took one year.

However, every other game we've made since then has missed several anticipated release dates and caused the dreaded "when's it gonna be done?" syndrome to occur.

So, yeah, I'd say that having control over your release date (by not announcing something too early) allows you certain luxuries, such as being able to arrange your release date to fall when public hype is peaking, being able to avoid all the usual repetitive questions, and having the pressure taken off of you by feeling that you need to have something done by a certain date.

As for people in the adventure game community jumping on things, I've noticed it a lot in recent times. It never used to be as bad as it is now. I look at KQ1VGA now, and I can see many things that people would tear apart if we released it as a new game nowadays. But back in 2001, there were virtually no complaints about it, other than the fact that it used collaged backgrounds.

Fast-forward to 2007, and every 20-something year-old and his younger brother will be taking pot-shots at your stuff -- even if the criticism is totally unwarranted and the facts just plain wrong, as Klytos pointed out. There are just a lot of fools in the community these days.  I call this the "know-it-all" era, where everyone has to put their opinion in, even if it's useless. So why does this occur now, when it didn't a few years ago? Well, the way I see it, there are several factors:

1) Generation differences.  In general, many younger kids (say, 23 and under) these days are much more blunt than they were even five short years ago. Not ALL younger people are like this, but many do seem to be. It's due to changing times, I guess. I've been helping a friend run underage entertainment events over the past few years, and we've also noticed a huge difference in attitudes there too -- 2003 seemed to be the turning point. Anyway, with the demand for higher quality products, and the impatience/demands of the youth for instant gratification, a deficit is created. What they want cannot be delivered either on-time or to the quality level they are expecting, without some kind of conflict erupting.  The reason this applies mainly to the younger generation (from a gaming standpoint) is because the current generation are more likely to have gotten 'hooked' on hi-res, simplified-interface adventure titles like Syberia and not the Sierra/LucasArts classics which generally required more thought and more interaction.  Therefore, the younger crowd might have a difficult time comprehending why you decided to make a 320x200 or 640x400 res game in these modern 3D times.

2) The "Why do they think they're so much better than us?" argument. Basically, this is when a segment of the community perceives that, because X team/person, doesn't interact with Y community for whatever reason, the 'logical' assumption is that X must think they're superior. (Nevermind that there could actually be any number of other reasons).  Therefore Y community feel obliged to force X into humility by barraging them with criticism (usually the non-constructive type).  This one's purely an ad hominem argument because conclusions are drawn from assumptions, which are then treated as hard facts. Team/Person X becomes detestable, therefore, their games are treated as detestable by extension.

This is, perhaps, the most annoying situation but these days, it's almost unavoidable for anyone who achieves any kind of success, status, or public recognition that others in the same community may not be receiving.  People will watch your every move to see if you are writing or saying something which could possibly offend other members of the community. Marketing slogans and features of your product are attacked for sounding too 'arrogant', and so forth. Basically, your creative freedom becomes severely compromised (if you decide to appease the mob). But if you disagree to make the alterations, then they might accuse you of being a narcicisstic, power hungry monster!  I often find it amusing that the accusers are 10 times more loud-mouthed, arrogant, and obnoxious sounding when stating their own opinions, yet somehow believe that they're the exception to the rule who should not be judged by their very own criteria.

The amateur adventure community can, unfortunately, be an extremely crippling enviroment for anybody who wants to consider launching a commercial endeavour,  because there's a general consensus, held by quite a few, that nobody should have the audacity to make commercial adventure games when there are so many selfless people making them for free. Marketing slogans of such projects (a part of any normal advertising and sales campaign) are attacked because you're perceived as 'not on the level' with the rest of the community. Plus, people in the amateur community are used to getting their adventure games for free, so they're sometimes unlikely to support a product which they have to pay money for in addition to supporting a team/person that they have been brainwashed to detest. With this lingering sentiment in the amateur community and the fact that you could be dragged through the mud simply for doing what's necessary to sell/publicize a product, it's easy to see why adventures are still going to be struggling for quite some time. It's not really an ideal place to hang around if you're trying to boost team morale or are expecting public support.

This is vicious cycle that's flipped 180 degrees. Because instead of Y community asking "Why do they think they're so much better than us?", they should really be asking themselves ""What have we done to drive X-team away? Do we create an environment that they'd want to be a part of?"

3) Some people are just dickheads, plain and simple. This can be for any number of reasons; they want to appear intelligent by playing the devil's advocate, they want to join the rest of the mob, they don't like what you stand for, or maybe they got up on the wrong side of the bed etc.  But let's face it, sometimes in life, you just come across dickheads. And the more exposure you have within any given community, the more dickheads you are likely to cross paths with. I have found that a good indicator of how successful you are, is proportional to the number of dickheads that are trying to bring you down at any given time.

As a rule, people will never criticize you using baseless arguments or incorrect facts unless they either feel very threatened, are envious, or feel your success is undeserved.  In such cases, you can always reassure yourself that you must be doing something right -- because if you weren't, then nobody would care enough to invest that amount of time or energy in you.

Ultimately, though, people make games because they enjoy the process. Because they're trying to follow their vision, and also gain more experience as they continue making games.  Critics and criticisms are nothing new to games. The problem isn't criticism in itself, because everyone can use room for improvement. The real problem is when critics start confusing fact with fiction and turning their opinions into personal Vendettas (i.e. calling people liars etc.)

That's confusing for the designer because it's an information overload and the designer then has to sort-out the constructive criticism from all the bullshit. They need to spend valuable time figuring out which comments are genuinely worth listening to.  It's unfortunate that there's a huge overabundance of useless comments out there these days, and it takes an entirely new skill-set to be able to pick and choose which criticisms are worth listening to and learning from, and which are not.  

But I think if designers stick to their visions and goals, then that's a good start.  Sometimes you have to give in to public criticism, but sometimes you have to force the public to accept a design decision and learn to adapt to it.  In the end, the designer is still in complete control of their game and just as easily as some idiot can post a page full of garbage, you can just as easily ignore it and chuckle to yourself that he even bothered to waste his time typing such crap.

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#19 Post by Klytos » Sat Apr 21, 2007 10:20 am

I agree with everything AGD2 has written.
2) The "Why do they think they're so much better than us?" argument.
Hah. You're right there. But sometimes, you are better than other people or teams. Sometimes your product is better than all the others.

I think part of the problem is the neutral world we live in now, where everything HAS to be equal, everybody is the same and nobody can be better. People won't strive to be as good or better than their idol's anymore, they'll just try and rip their idol's down to a lower level than they are, making themselves feel superior in the process.

The simple truth is that there is always somebody better than you. So strive to be better yourself.

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#20 Post by Katta Master » Sat Apr 21, 2007 10:31 am

Which other sprite, friend?


Well if it's not Roger Wilco....who could it be ?

Hey Just Kidding!

It's obvious your picture matches the other sprite....just having a bit o' fun.

No offense intended.

Roger Wilco's sprite was excellent...the demo was great. that's why i made the plug in the first place.

3) Some people are just dickheads, plain and simple. This can be for any number of reasons; they want to appear intelligent by playing the devil's advocate, they want to join the rest of the mob, they don't like what you stand for, or maybe they got up on the wrong side of the bed etc.  But let's face it, sometimes in life, you just come across dickheads. And the more exposure you have within any given community, the more dickheads you are likely to cross paths with. I have found that a good indicator of how successful you are, is proportional to the number of dickheads that are trying to bring you down at any given time.

Interesting Theory......especially if you don't like what the other person is saying.

I prefer "let's agree to disagree"  rather than "let's hit the Passive Aggressive nuke button"

Time to end the thread wouldn't you say....

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#21 Post by Anonymous Game Creator 2 » Sat Apr 21, 2007 12:30 pm

Hah. You're right there. But sometimes, you are better than other people or teams. Sometimes your product is better than all the others.

I think part of the problem is the neutral world we live in now, where everything HAS to be equal, everybody is the same and nobody can be better. People won't strive to be as good or better than their idol's anymore, they'll just try and rip their idol's down to a lower level than they are, making themselves feel superior in the process.
What I find disappointing is that there are people in the amatuer community who's work I have respected for a long time. But for some reason, it's assumed that if you don't post actively on specific forums, then you're not up to date with the goings-on in the community.  So, to see some of those people also jump on the bandwagon too, is unfortunate to say the least.

The political correctness of it not being 'right' to strive to achieve a higher standard, as you put it, really does exist.  Though, even if you don't brag at all, you'd probably still get accused of being high and mighty, simply because others might see that your project is trying to set new standards. They'll project their own feelings of inadequacy onto you.  This manifests itself as "So you think you're better than me???"
I prefer "let's agree to disagree"  rather than "let's hit the Passive Aggressive nuke button"
My "let's agree to disagree" button doesn't work anymore. I think I pressed it way too many times.  Besides, if nothing else, at least the commotion means a bit of extra publicity.  :lol

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#22 Post by antonyo » Sat Apr 21, 2007 3:33 pm

Regarding the demo idea, isn't the game so close to beta release that a demo would simply take much longer to be produced than the beta? And a polished demo would be much longer to release than the game itself?
A good example is that SQ2 joke demo IA released a few weeks ago. Some people actually complained that Roger was wrong. But in actual fact, that Roger is ripped from SQ4 completely.
I don't think you received flak because they don't fit the game (they do fit the Sierra's original style), but because the SQ4 sprites are quite simply not the best Roger Wilco sprites out there, the same is true with SQ5 and its rather poor sprite shrinking/resizing management. The sprites from SQ4 or SQ5 are not very expressive and not very detailed when compared to those from SQ1VGA.

Roger shot in SQ1VGA. Roger shot again.
Roger shot in SQ4. Roger shot again.

If you haven't drawn too much sprites for SQ2VGA so far, you could try using the SQ1VGA sprites to see if they would fit the game better. In case the sprites are too colorful and don't fit the background style, you could also experiment with the SQ1VGA model and the SQ4's colors and shading, you could also check on various forums to ask people's opinions. But if you've drawn an huge amount of Roger sprites already, simply forget the idea and continue with the remake.

I think the SQ4 sprites fit the remake and the Sierra's style, however, even if I don't mind them, they aren't the best choice compared to the sprites of SQ1VGA. Still, like AGD2 pointed, there will always have people who'll tell you an aspect of your games sucks for whatever reasons and it's impossible to please everyone at the same time, so just keep on the good work and do what you feel is best.

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#23 Post by Lambonius » Sat Apr 21, 2007 8:01 pm

I too always thought that the SQ4 sprites were crummy and poorly animated.  I don't think you IA guys need to make any changes on YOUR project or anything, undoubtedly you will have to add in new and more interesting animations anyway, simply because you're making a different game.  But yeah, I always thought SQ4's sprite graphics left a bit to be desired (it's good to hear someone with the same opinion.)

*It's also a shame to hear so many strongly-embittered opinions from you game developers.  

Personally, I look up to you guys and salute the work that you're doing, even if every now and then I see a design choice made that might not necessarily have been the way I would have done it.  I am not a game developer, nor do I have any desire to be (though I have done some sprite work in the past actually, and I'd totally offer to contribute background and sprite art to some of these smaller teams if I wasn't up to my ears in graduate school  ;) .)  I realize that constant badgering from ignorant fans can get to you after a while, especially when you're putting so much hard work and effort into something that you really don't get any kind of compensation/physical reward for, but that's no reason to stop letting things just roll off your backs.  

This community, and the one over at the IA forums (which is pretty much the same community) are some of the coolest and most laid-back sounding people I have ever not met, and after frequenting these forums for the past two or so years, I've only recently decided to really throw myself into active participation.  For all its quirks though, I've gotta say I think it's a joy to be a part of this community, and I eagerly check these forums (and IA's) multiple times a day just to read people's amusing comments; the thought of getting game updates is completely out of my mind at this point.  

Anyway, chin up, AGD2, there are those here who still feel you and respect you and everything you guys work for.

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#24 Post by Blackthorne519 » Sun Apr 22, 2007 2:55 am

The BASIS for our Roger sprite is from SQ4.  However, MOST of the specialized animations that are unique to SQ2 have been created, from scratch, by the head of our animation department.  Believe me, there's some GREAT animations we've made of Roger in various situations.


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#25 Post by rich_eter » Sun Apr 22, 2007 8:55 am

I need to reiterate I love BT. It's no wonder I work for him. One of the best chaps around.

It wasn't my decision to use the SQ4, but it's the choice I would have made. I personally prefer the color scheme of the SQ4 Roger over the SQ1 Roger. I can't say much about the animations themselves, but, let me give a good logical reason to use the SQ4 sprites even if the SQ1 sprites may be better. SQ2, 3 and 4 make up a trilogy of sorts. During that time, Roger never goes home. He never changes his clothes. He never gets a haircut or dyes his hair. It probably makes up less than a day for him of actual "awake time". He goes from one crazy adventure to the next very quickly during these three games. It stands to reason that in SQ2 he would look pretty much exactly the same as he does in SQ4. That's the best reason for using these sprites... and it's continuity. All that aside, I think they're damn good sprites.

My only hope is that the SQ3 remake will use these sprites too. I implored Alliance to use them. It sounds like he will. Good... I like continuity.

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