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 Post subject: If I could make a suggestion...
PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 7:32 pm 
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I posted a few times in the forums a few years back, around the time KQ2+ came out and a little after, then I became a casual lurker like so many here. I, like most of the people here, waited patiently for QFG2 to come out, and like so many I am astounded by the rudeness of some of the less patient fans.

Waiting on QFG2 is like waiting on the chef to prepare your food at a fine restaurant. If you want fast food, go to McDonalds. Finely prepared food takes time, and tastes all the better. Game making isn't like a sushi bar; you can't see the chef making your food, but you know it's being made.

Next time you go out to a nice restaurant try bugging your waiter or waitress by actually asking why your food is taking so long, or if the cook is actually preparing your food or if they are just playing around, make a real fuss. Keep it up and I'm sure you'll get your food sooner, but I wouldn't eat it.

Keeping my food metaphor going, it's nice to get wheat rolls with honey butter before the appetizer, the appetizer being the announcement of the beta testing, and the entree being the release of the game. At last we come to my suggestion.

It might be too late in coming, too much effort for an already stressed team, or might just be a bad idea all together, but my suggestion is a contest. Everyone who wants to join plays back through QG1 VGA and runs a late beta testing in it, logging every error found just as you would if you were helping out AGDI in the beta testing of QG2. If members of ADGI agree, the person who finds the most errors wins a spot of the coveted QFG2 beta team, and those that don't at least of a character to import into QFG2.

Even if my idea doesn't come to fruition, we all need to remember that manners are manners everywhere, be it on the Internet where no one knows who you are, or at your family dinner table. I can't speak for anyone else, but I was raised to say please and thank you and to believe patience is a virtue.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 9:27 pm 
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Alright, this is just my opinion on how this would work, and my guess is that they wouldn't have the time.

1. There is no known master list for all the bugs/glitches/exploits/whatever that are in QFG1VGA.

2. Someone would need to confirm that these bugs are indeed bugs.  It would take an enormous undertaking just to do it.

It's a decent suggestion, but maybe you should just go through the first game anyway so you have an import character ^_^


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 10:02 pm 
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Beta testing is not fun.  Beta testing an old, buggy game, when you know that the list of bugs you generate will be completely useless, doesn't make it better.  And then "winning" the opportunity to beta test even more as a reward...


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 12:57 am 
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You and your food metaphors... you made me hungry.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 1:48 am 
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It made me hungry, too. To bad I'm to poor these days to go to a nice restaurant.

It may have not been the best idea in retrospect. I do like the idea of a contest to win a spot on the beta testing team though. I know enough people have asked to be on it. Plus I was trying to keep it QFG related.

I think there does need something constructive to keep the masses happy. Maybe an art contest or a writing contest. I know that won't help the worst of the impatients, but it will give the rest of us something to do while we check in for updates.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 3:02 am 
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the thing is though, beta testing, as adeyke says, ISN'T a reward, nor should it be treated as such.  Beta testing is as much a responsibility as it is a privelege to play the game ahead of time - think about how much the team has talked about testing it.  

A beta tester is going to be asked to go through this game god knows how many times over and over,  to test many different permutations of actions and activities (and possibly many different characters.)   Moreover, you have to expect/put up with the possibility of corrupted or crashed games, irrecoverable errors,  things like that, which will force the user to start over again.   In fact, it kinda "emphasizes" the idea that "beta testing" is more a "free peek" than an obligation, as nice an idea as it was.

Beta testing is (and should) first and foremost be about helping the ADGI folks improve the game, and to make the final release all that much more enjoyable for the public.  In that respect, its alot more of a sacrifice (not as big as the team themselves made, but still) than a privelege, because you're sacrificing your ability to enjoy the "completeD" game the first time.   I'm kinda rather mixed about that, honestly.  Part of me wants to see the game early, but another part of me feels also wants to re-live the "nostalgia" that I felt when I first played through each QFG, the "newness" of it.   I don't think that's something that should be disregarded lightly "just so" a person doesn't have to wait any longer.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 10:24 am 
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Truer words have never been spoken, Jack.  However, I should also mention that we'll make sure the game is stable enough to play through from beginning to end without crashing for all character classes, before releasing the first beta.

Ideally, we hope the beta testers will only have to find little quirks and glitches that we've overlooked. Hopefully our own programming style and alpha testing picks up all the fatal crashes.  Many companies will release a really buggy beta which is totally untested by themselves. They expect their beta testers to find EVERYTHING that's wrong with it.  It think that's a bit irresponsible, though. It all goes back to what I was saying in another thread about making things manageable... that is, fixing all known bugs so that beta testers won't have to report stuff we already know about. Why get beta testers to report redundant stuff? The task is already a big responsibility, so we don't want to waste those resources on having 20 people report a bug we already know about. Additionally, I also think very much like a beta tester when testing and programming the game myself, so I'm able to find and fix a huge amount of obscure bugs beforehand.

I believe that beta testers will find it more enjoyable to play through a test version and will also stay more alert if we make the effort to ensure that the game won't crash for them (to the best of our knowledge).

As for keeping the masses happy, that's mission impossible. I think the best thing would be to concentrate all efforts on just finishing the game ASAP and releasing it. That's the only thing that will truly make the masses happy. :)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 12:12 pm 
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The other thing to note is that it's very hard to find people who are willing to put in the time and effort required of beta-testing, especially when they're not getting paid for it.

For example, we (IA) had 30 people testing KQ3 and in the end only half dozen of them posted ANYTHING, let alone complete lists. We ended up with I think three people who tested the game inside out.

From conversations I've had with Erpy, I believe the same thing happened here with AGDI's previous two releases.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 12:41 pm 
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Somewhat. The exact number eludes me, but it's common practice to start out with a whole legion of testers who test the first version, have a fair amount stop giving feedback by the time the second version is compiled and by the time the RC-version needs to be played through, there's usually about a handful left. Playing through a game over and over again gets mundane and it's nearly impossible to imagine that beforehand.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 1:24 pm 
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All things considered, I'd say most of our beta testers so far have been pretty good. Of course, we've had a few cases of testers who just signed up to play the games in advance and even one who felt they couldn't fulfill their testing duties because they didn't like the style of the game. :rolleyes

But overall, most of them have been good. Also, some people from the AGS community have a good reputation for being reliable testers.  As you make more games, you begin to form a good idea of who your good testers are; those whom you might consider calling on to beta test your next game.

Of course, anyone who applies to be a beta tester is gonna pimp their resume to make it sound spectacular and make you pick them. So credentials and big claims aren't always as highly regarded as other things.  Choosing the right testers is a matter of luck and of knowing reliable testers from previous games.  I never rely 100% on beta testers to find every bug, and I'll also continue to hunt for bugs myself while beta testing is ongoing.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 1:51 am 
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I guess the question is- who has the time to beta test a full game through, over and over?

I don't even have time to play the old QFG games, let alone obsessively hunt a beta remake for bugs and play it upwards of 5 times.

That said, I would gladly do it if I got some free time. Gladly. But I just wouldn't be so surprised people don't stay the course- it would be very time consuming.

Out of interest, how long does it take to beta test a proper, non-crashing beta, one time?

- Alistair

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 5:28 am 
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Alistair wrote:
I guess the question is- who has the time to beta test a full game through, over and over?



*sighs*  That would be me.  Presently no job, so I gots a looooooooooooooooot of free time on my hands.  *cries*


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 3:39 am 
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I'd be willing to test it, although I don't really have much to bring to the table besides: a.) the ability to set time aside to test it.  b.) stubbornness (don't ask me how much time I'll devote to an RPG just to win a pointless minor prize..)  c.) a desire to help out.

I really only stumbled onto the fan-made game thing a few years back, and for all but the past half year/year or so I was mainly a lurker.  (In fact, AGDI's ofrums are the first and ONLY forums I participate in right now..)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 9:23 am 
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Test certain parts, no?

Leave the BT to those who can take it.

I for one would refuse to play KQ3IA if I had to Beta test it!
It would ruin the entire game. Bug this, bug that. Crash here, crash when I open a door, or select an item. Game crash with sound effect.

No, the respect I have for all upper managment both here and at IA lies in the talent working for no profit. Kudos, guys.

That means you too Klytos, keep it up. I will always appreciate your services to the community.
People like myself only grew up playing these games, not picking apart their software. Altough I had torn open many a PC and tried to mess with it, ending up me getting my ass kicked.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 11:11 am 
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Jack Sawyer wrote:
I'd be willing to test it, although I don't really have much to bring to the table besides: a.) the ability to set time aside to test it.  b.) stubbornness (don't ask me how much time I'll devote to an RPG just to win a pointless minor prize..)  c.) a desire to help out.

I really only stumbled onto the fan-made game thing a few years back, and for all but the past half year/year or so I was mainly a lurker.  (In fact, AGDI's ofrums are the first and ONLY forums I participate in right now..)


I didn't know the application process started.  :\

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2007 12:11 am 
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BrianR wrote:
Jack Sawyer wrote:
I'd be willing to test it, although I don't really have much to bring to the table besides: a.) the ability to set time aside to test it.  b.) stubbornness (don't ask me how much time I'll devote to an RPG just to win a pointless minor prize..)  c.) a desire to help out.

I really only stumbled onto the fan-made game thing a few years back, and for all but the past half year/year or so I was mainly a lurker.  (In fact, AGDI's ofrums are the first and ONLY forums I participate in right now..)


I didn't know the application process started.  :\


I wasn't aware that posting my opinion on a forum was a viable means of  submitting an application.  I'd figure they'd have something more formal on the page once they announced it or  tell us how to submit applications.   (They did tell us they'd let us know when and how the proceess would be organized/handled once they decided to START the beta-testing process..) ;)

If I'd been submitting my application via forum I'd have submitted the appropriate bribes and big neon signs saying PICK ME PICK ME! too.  You can't forget the big neon signs.  :rollin


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2007 12:42 am 
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Just to clarify, the application process has not started yet.  You'll know when it has.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:13 am 
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Whats with these screenshots from QFG1VGA?

I think I was nine when that game came out.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2007 12:38 pm 
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I know it did not start.  But you seem like you are already trying to get to the front of the line of being part of a daunting task.

Ibanezrg82 the screen shot you see is from a spoof game called quest for glory 4 1/2.  Some hated the game.  But I found it mildly entertaining.  Though the creator did not have premission from Sierra nor the Coles.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 6:08 am 
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Can't we all just get along?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 10:36 am 
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There's a brief history between AGDI and QFG4.5. Although it is hard to get hold of the game these days (especially a version that will work for XP) you weren't allowed to post links or discuss the game here.

I'm not sure if its changed now but the reason being was something to do with Tierra/AGDI not getting a long with the creator of QFG4.5. (I can't remember exactly why, but if AGD2 is willing, he may explain the story for those who want to know) I loved the game, even if the humour was a little foul.

And slightly off-topic, I never get bored of that YTMND in BrianR's signature. :)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 10:47 am 
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Sorry I didn't know there was bad blood.  I can take it off my sig if it's requested.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 12:46 pm 
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Meh, not necessary. The screenshot doesn't show any of the game's cruder elements, so you don't have to remove it.

Yeah, in the old Tierra days, some major tension took place a few times between the creator of that game and us...involving banning a few accounts, deleting some hatemail and us pretty much blacklisting the site and the game.

Anyway, that's really ancient history now. I don't think I've heard from the guy in years and his site died long ago. I personally don't mind people mentioning the game or posting screenshots as long as said screenshots don't contain any mature elements.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 1:13 pm 
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It wasn't the mature elements of the game, but rather the racist elements (which the guy actually removed from the code after a lot of public complaints). Though, their forums were filled with posts by the creators in 'defense' of why they'd included that kind of content in their game.

The only reason the creator of QFG4.5 was kicked off these forums was because he came here and started trolling with some sexist or racist agenda (I can't recall which), and we didn't particularly want to waste our time locking and/or deleting hundreds of posts, so it was easier to make him sit in the corner and have some quite time instead.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 3:54 pm 
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I see.  I had no idea what it was when I downloaded it.  I was just looking for any game like the qfg series.  I did not like some of the cruder elements.   I do not remember and racism or sexism.  Not sure if you can even get it anymore since the Coles went after him.  I just have it in my sig because I like it would be funny if people get confused and second guess what the purple castle looked like inside.

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