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 Post subject: I have to say it – misconceptions about torrent.
PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 10:58 am 
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Ok, sorry, I can't take it anymore, I have to say it. :eek

First, this is not a request to distribute QfG2VGA via bittorrent – I totally respect your choice, and accept it, even if your didn't have Vivendi agreement limiting distribution forms - after all it is the fruit of your labour, and you're giving it away for free, and I'm extremely grateful for that. It more about clearing up some misconceptions.

In all threads where torrents are mentioned, I keep reading that bittorrent does not provide accurate download statistics – but it isn't so. Tracker of each torrent provides a great deal of statistics about each peer in the network, including amount downloaded and amount uploaded, if the download was completed or not, what errors were produces, etc. So using torrents actually allows keeping your statistics straight.

Primary advantage of using torrents, at least in my opinion, is distribution of bandwidth – basically, if you have a lot of people trying to download from a server at the same time, the servers becomes very slow or stops responding at all. But with torrent, you have all users on the network contributing, even a little, making it more reliable. Because of this torrent is an efficient form of distribution during early days of release, when there are a lot of people to downloading.

Of course, I have no idea of the capacity of the servers that will be used, and I hope that there will be enough mirrors to accommodate everyone.

The only real disadvantage of torrent that I see, that setting up a tracker, while is not difficult, requires some network skills.

So there, I had to get it out. I feel much better now. :rollin


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 Post subject: Re: I have to say it – misconceptions about torrent.
PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 11:15 am 
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I don't know too much about torrents, though each time I use one I end up getting virus fried.

Anyhow, even if the torrents DID provide the most extreme accuracy in the count, it would still be unsuitable for their cause. AGDI wants an accurate count for people who downloaded this game...and the easiest, simplest way to do that is to have it in a few places or one as a direct download. If they wanted to use a torrent, the amount of time consumed from not only finding all the torrents they would start, but also the torrents started from other users by them seeding it, would simply be too much.

As for AGDI using a torrent as their primary means of distribution...well, think about it. The majority of folks who will be downloading QFG2VGA will NOT have a torrent program to begin with, and honestly, it'd be a hassle for everyone if they had to download a program so they could download a program.


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 Post subject: Re: I have to say it – misconceptions about torrent.
PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 11:23 am 
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In the end, we're still only allowed to provide the game through a download on our site, so this discussion is still completely based on a what-if-scenario.

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 Post subject: Re: I have to say it – misconceptions about torrent.
PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 11:32 am 
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I've mentioned this but it will most likely end up on Bittorrent anyway, the only difference being it won't be endorsed by AGDI. It's people preferred method of downloading and it takes one person to start seeding it and the rest follows.

Plus, it just doesn't seem that professional either to distribute your game through Bittorrent. To most people, torrent equals piracy and when you're affiliated with a company like Vivendi you wouldn't want to use something like that as a means of distributions. And speaking of being professional, it's better to have direct downloading rather than mentioning that all you need to do is search for it on torrent websites. Otherwise it would just be like a Jodo Kast moment... "It's on Kazaa!!" and we wouldn't want that.

All AGDI needs a good amount of reliable servers and you needn't worry about any downtime. You'll still be able to get yourself a copy of QFG2VGA. It's free anyway, if it's available on the website directly than why bother with torrents? If nobody is seeding it than it's just going to be extremely slow or completely stationery.

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 Post subject: Re: I have to say it – misconceptions about torrent.
PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 11:41 am 
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Broomie wrote:
...it's better to have direct downloading rather than mentioning that all you need to do is search for it on torrent websites. Otherwise it would just be like a Jodo Kast moment... "It's on Kazaa!!" and we wouldn't want that.


:lol Brilliant!

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 Post subject: Re: I have to say it – misconceptions about torrent.
PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 11:45 am 
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Tye wrote:
Anyhow, even if the torrents DID provide the most extreme accuracy in the count, it would still be unsuitable for their cause.
Well, maybe they don't provide the most extreme accuracy, but they do provide a high level of accuracy, definitely not lower than direct downloads.

Quote:
If they wanted to use a torrent, the amount of time consumed from not only finding all the torrents they would start, but also the torrents started from other users by them seeding it, would simply be too much.
That's not the way the torrents work, actually. There is a single torrent associated with AGDI hosted tracker, and everyone who downloads it automatically provide statistics for the tracker, on matter where they get the “.torrent” file. So, no need to track any other torrents. This is how the bittorrent is different from other 2p2 networks – it's offers better centralisation.

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As for AGDI using a torrent as their primary means of distribution...well, think about it. The majority of folks who will be downloading QFG2VGA will NOT have a torrent program to begin with, and honestly, it'd be a hassle for everyone if they had to download a program so they could download a program.
I wouldn't speak for majority – obviously we don't have the statistics, but torrents are very widespread these days, so we can assume that there is a share of people who has it.

And really, I did not offer torrent as their primary means of distribution - I said that I respect their decision not to use torrent. I said that generally using torrents offers an alternative to direct downloads, especially when there are a lot of people downloading, and DD servers bandwidth might not be enough.

Basically, if someone finds that all servers are busy, and he can't download what he wants he doesn't have to sit clicking, trying to get a moment when one of the mirrors gets free, he has an alternative that is not dependant on direct download servers bandwidth.


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 Post subject: Re: I have to say it – misconceptions about torrent.
PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 11:55 am 
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*nods* The "primary distribution" wasn't something you said in your original post... it's just something I wanted to point out. And I guarantee you that a majority of the people who download this game will NOT have a torrent program or know how to use one.


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 Post subject: Re: I have to say it – misconceptions about torrent.
PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 12:06 pm 
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Broomie wrote:
Plus, it just doesn't seem that professional either to distribute your game through Bittorrent.
You have a point, to a certain degree, but torrents are also used to distribute open source software, and Blizzard uses bittorrent protocol to distribute World of Warcraft patches, and The White Chamber (a horror indie-produced adventure game) initially had the torrent option, because the download was about 350MB. So it's not all piracy and bad stuff.

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It's better to have direct downloading rather than mentioning that all you need to do is search for it on torrent websites.
Of course, I didn't say about uploading anything on any external website – I meant setting up a tracker on hoster's site.

Quote:
All AGDI needs a good amount of reliable servers and you needn't worry about any downtime.
If on the first day the game is released, and the servers will be groaning under the load of thousands of rabid fans downloading the game, do I get a permission to say “I toooold ya!”? :p :lol

But, like I said – it's more about clearing a few misunderstanding about torrents, not about changing AGDI's distribution methods.


Last edited by Arseny on Mon Jul 28, 2008 12:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: I have to say it – misconceptions about torrent.
PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 12:19 pm 
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Erpy wrote:
In the end, we're still only allowed to provide the game through a download on our site, so this discussion is still completely based on a what-if-scenario.
Sorry, sorry, I'm really trying not to beat the dead horse. :o

Like I said, it's not the distribution method that's bugging me, it's the fact that there are some, well, misconceptions about how torrents work. ;) You know -

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 Post subject: Re: I have to say it – misconceptions about torrent.
PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 12:30 pm 
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When I said that the torrent figures couldn't be factored into our download counts, I was referring to illegally seeded QFG2VGA torrents that we'd have no control over. After all, it's not like the owner of every tracker is going to be checking-in to courteously inform us how many times the game has been downloaded. Also, pirates might bunch our remake together with the rest of the official QFG games and put the whole bunch on a torrent site as one file. Such things skew the accuracy of the download figures.

I would also say that the majority of people who will be downloading the game would not have bit-torrent installed on their systems. There's a large number of old-school gamers, stay-at-home mothers, and other (generally) non-technical types in our fan-base demographic who really don't keep up with all the modern technologies. So our aim is to make the game downloads work simply and efficiently from the main website with a simple mouse click. That way it's easy enough for everyone to download without any additional software or programs having to be installed.


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 Post subject: Re: I have to say it – misconceptions about torrent.
PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 12:38 pm 
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Yeah, I understand. :) I just hope that there will be enough mirrors for everyone.


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 Post subject: Re: I have to say it – misconceptions about torrent.
PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 12:46 pm 
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I download probably 2 gigs via BitTorrent on a weekend... and upload 6 gigs because of seeding.

You can tell me all you want to, but it's pretty obvious that the only people benefitting from Torrents are those with hi-speed connections.
Slower connections (like most people on the net), are nothing more than stepping stones for these people.

But even then, for both these type of people, direct downloads are faster. Since there will be direct downloads, and MANY mirrors, why bother having BitTorrent?

Neither KQ1 or KQ2 caused even a lag on either mirror with their releases, and technology has improved even more since then.


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 Post subject: Re: I have to say it – misconceptions about torrent.
PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 1:01 pm 
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Gronagor wrote:
I download probably 2 gigs via BitTorrent on a weekend... and upload 6 gigs because of seeding.
If you don't want to, you don't have to – most clients allow limiting incoming or outgoing bandwidth allocation, or you can just turn off the torrent right after it finished downloading.

Quote:
You can tell me all you want to, but it's pretty obvious that the only people benefitting from Torrents are those with hi-speed connections. Slower connections (like most people on the net), are nothing more than stepping stones for these people.
Err, I'm sorry, stepping stones to where? I not really sure that I'm getting it.

Quote:
Neither KQ1 or KQ2 caused even a lag on either mirror with their releases, and technology has improved even more since then.
I vaguely remember that there was a problem with speech pack for KQ2, bit I may be wrong.

Still, my points was not about distribution of ADGI games, it was about some misconception about how the torrents work.


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 Post subject: Re: I have to say it – misconceptions about torrent.
PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 1:37 pm 
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Arseny wrote:
Image



I love xkcd :). Nice choice.

Gronagor wrote:
But even then, for both these type of people, direct downloads are faster.


Well, you're definitely wrong there. At least in my case. Direct HTML (or even FTP for that matter) downloads for me range from 2 kbps to 50 kbps max. And I'm on DSL. Torrent downloads for me can spike up to 200 kbps and about 100+ kbps regularly.

Another good thing about torrents vs direct is that direct downloads suffer from excessive bandwidth usage as the server can only do so much. With torrents it's the opposite; the more people there are the faster it goes.

However,...

Quote:
Since there will be direct downloads, and MANY mirrors, why bother having BitTorrent?


...I agree. There's no need for QFG2VGA to be on a torrent.

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 Post subject: Re: I have to say it – misconceptions about torrent.
PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 1:39 pm 
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What was once a dead horse is now mutilated...


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 Post subject: Re: I have to say it – misconceptions about torrent.
PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 1:41 pm 
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I disagree. This thread is about torrent misconceptions not making a QFG2VGA torrent.

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 Post subject: Re: I have to say it – misconceptions about torrent.
PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 1:48 pm 
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Then...shouldn't this be in the off-topic forums?


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 Post subject: Re: I have to say it – misconceptions about torrent.
PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 1:50 pm 
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.......you're right. Erpy, maybe you should move this to Off-Topic.

And while the dead horse euphemism is still alive:

Code:
while(HorseDead==TRUE)
{
     beat();
}

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 Post subject: Re: I have to say it – misconceptions about torrent.
PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 2:15 pm 
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It's not totally off topic, since the discussion started with Vivendi and AGDI's views on torrents. If this is moved, it may not take long for another somebody to start an exact same thread in general.

We (or I mean you) can use this thread to defend torrents without being much of hindrance to the other thread. All noisy posts from the server space thread can be moved here.

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 Post subject: Re: I have to say it – misconceptions about torrent.
PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 2:27 pm 
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Code:
lol


Yea, I don't know any real code...except html.

And that's true Spikey...but we'll see what the higher ups say.


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 Post subject: Re: I have to say it – misconceptions about torrent.
PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 3:20 pm 
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Ah bit torrent. Some people love it. Some people hate it. I think what we all must keep in mind here is in fact usability and compatibility. First of all, I still do not think bit torrent is as mainstream as most people tend to suggest. Tracker sites are constantly popping up and being shut down temporarily just to be reopened. This sort of thing is probably understandable for people who use it frequently, but this can confuse and discourage alot of people. I'm sure the people who suggested bit torrent distribution meant for the tracker to be hosted on an official site, but the point is that the BT community at large is a jungle. Piracy is the #1 use for bit torrent. I think bit torrent as a technological protocol is a great idea, however so far in execution it has proven to be a hassle for alot of people. Not only do you have hackers posting viruses and other bits of nasty things, you have companies which are employed by the RIAA and MPAA who purposely set up torrents with fake illegal content to try and sucker people into a lawsuit. All and all it can be a not-so-friendly place.

From a technological standpoint it has just as many cons as pros. Yes it is centralized and download speeds generally tend to increase the more people who use it (except when there is a large number of leechers and the seeders cannot keep up in bandwidth.) It doesn't use a server's bandwidth/month which can easily save money, and the community gets to contribute more easily to share the load. The download speeds can vary but tend to be good depending on the popularity of the tracker. In my experience I can cap my bandwidth at 560kb/s fairly easily. However unlike direct download, it varies. One minute I might have 560kb/s the next i may have 400kb/s and then it will shoot back to 560kb/s. Sometimes I will lose a fast seed because they simply log off, and I will get a bit less. Bit torrent can be fast, but inconsistent (due to the fact it sends chucks of data and reconnects each chunk, peers are shuffled around due to ratio's, ect). If i get a good server (IE: not rapidshare , megaupload, or fileplanet) i can cap 560kb/s constantly until the download finishes.

I think the biggest issue with bit torrent as a main distribution for a community is simple. Connectivity. If you have a firewall you must open ports. If you have a router you must forward ports. Depending on the technical skill of the user, this can be a nightmare. Even properly configured, it sometimes does not work well. If you are a peer trying to connect to another peer, and you both have a router on each side between you, expect really slow speed or none at all. Also keep in mind quite a few ISP's ban the protocol. You can get around this with encryption but it slows the speed a bit and can cause more compatibility issues. Depending on where you are in the country, and how many hops it takes to get to different nodes can strangely effect speeds alot too. All in all, the main problem with BT is the fact the average joe will have a hard time getting it to work at a good speed, and most will give up before messing with it much. A large percent of people are simply going to refuse to open ports for a client due to security issues.

Don't get me wrong, I use torrents alot. I can manage to download 20gb in 2-3 days or so. However I do recignise the flaws in it, and I know quite a few people who have given up trying to use it regularly. Asside from the legal issues of distributing QFG2 via bit torrent, I think there would be some technical ones as well. WoW used nothing but BT for it's patches at launch, and there was a public outcry the likes I have never witnessed before in my life :P


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 Post subject: Re: I have to say it – misconceptions about torrent.
PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 8:15 pm 
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Great post on the technical side of torrents, Smackbuggy. Hits a lot of nails right on the head; you named the reasons why you use it, but also the reasons why I'm not using it.

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 Post subject: Re: I have to say it – misconceptions about torrent.
PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 11:14 pm 
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Quote:
Yes it is centralized

For the record, no, BitTorrent is NOT centralized. All major clients support DHT, which allows peers to announce other peers. This means that the majority of BitTorrent users can continue to operate without trackers. The trackers are a convenience that allow their webmasters to earn money. The smaller ones also serve as communities. But eliminating trackers does not in any way eliminate BitTorrent.


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 Post subject: Re: I have to say it – misconceptions about torrent.
PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 1:19 am 
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Nice topic.

Quote:
You can tell me all you want to, but it's pretty obvious that the only people benefitting from Torrents are those with hi-speed connections.
Slower connections (like most people on the net), are nothing more than stepping stones for these people.

I've spend enough time with a slow connection, seen enough websites that do not allow resuming download, and seen enough resumed direct download ending with corrupted archives to know that I'd much rather download 2GB through torrent, over several days while I am sleeping, than through direct download.

Quote:
When I said that the torrent figures couldn't be factored into our download counts, I was referring to illegally seeded QFG2VGA torrents that we'd have no control over. After all, it's not like the owner of every tracker is going to be checking-in to courteously inform us how many times the game has been downloaded. Also, pirates might bunch our remake together with the rest of the official QFG games and put the whole bunch on a torrent site as one file. Such things skew the accuracy of the download figures.

But you realise there is absolutly nothing preventing people from doing all that you listed above after they get the game through direct download, I am not sure how it is revelent to the argument.

Quote:
I would also say that the majority of people who will be downloading the game would not have bit-torrent installed on their systems. There's a large number of old-school gamers, stay-at-home mothers, and other (generally) non-technical types in our fan-base demographic who really don't keep up with all the modern technologies. So our aim is to make the game downloads work simply and efficiently from the main website with a simple mouse click. That way it's easy enough for everyone to download without any additional software or programs having to be installed.
Quote:
WoW used nothing but BT for it's patches at launch, and there was a public outcry the likes I have never witnessed before in my life :P

And you don't have to offer only one method of distribution either. You can very well offer direct download and mention "This game/software/patch can also be downloaded through torrent protocol. Since our servers will be very busy in the next days, if you regulary use torrent distribution methods, you could do us a favor and give our servers a chance by downloading the game through torrent. To download this game through torrent, click here" on the download page.


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 Post subject: Re: I have to say it – misconceptions about torrent.
PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 2:18 am 
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I don't like BitTorrent. Mostly because it's just too slow for me, and mostly because it's only good for getting illegal warez. Oh well.

Bt

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