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PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2005 9:47 pm 
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Gronagor wrote:
Don't know about the rest, but the moment QfG goes into a specific time period type of thing, I'll stop playing it. I'm looking for a fantasy adventure...


I'd just like to point out that placing a game on Earth, in a specific time period or periods, does not automatically make a game any worse. A perfect example of this is "Eternal Darkness: Sanity's requiem". It is one of my favorite games. And yet, it takes place in historically accurate settings (asides from the monsters running about. ;) ), which actually add to the atmosphere of it all.

I agree that QFG isn't on earth, and that if it were to suddenly appear there, it would involve a large leap of logic, that not many would be willing to bother with.
I am simply saying that fantasy adventures do not neccecarily have to take place in a completely fictional setting, just to be fantasy. (It's just easier that way)


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2005 12:00 am 
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Historical Accuracy + Monsters Running around = F***** BULLS*** !!!!!

There were never monsters.

FANTASY=WHATEVER THE HELL YOU FEEL LIKE!

ARGH!

You people drive me to drink.

Bt

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Surprisingly enough, Eternal Darkness implememented the combination of Historical Accuracy and monsters running about the levels extremely well. Unless you have played the game, and thus know what you are taking about, please do not insult it. Thank you.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2005 8:38 am 
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Blackthorne519 wrote:
Historical Accuracy + Monsters Running around = F***** BULLS*** !!!!!


Well, there are plenty of books and movies that are set in the real world, and yet bend its rules around - for instance with kung fu physics, or overt psychic powers, or weird critters running around, or even time travel. So why not games?

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Radiant wrote:
Blackthorne519 wrote:
Historical Accuracy + Monsters Running around = F***** BULLS*** !!!!!


Well, there are plenty of books and movies that are set in the real world, and yet bend its rules around - for instance with kung fu physics, or overt psychic powers, or weird critters running around, or even time travel. So why not games?


Lemme tell you, if they bend things, it's not the real world.  In fact, there is no such thing as the real world, is there?  

If any fantasy elements exist in said story, it's immediately a fantasy world.  It could be a fantasy VERSION of Earth, but since these things do not exist on Earth, it cannot be Earth.

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Ah, yes. The omnipotence of first person perspective.....
Just because it is not commonly seen does not mean that it does not exist. There have been instances of people with "psychic powers". and while "kung fu physics" are obviously not seen during everyday fights, It may be possible for highly skilled martial artists to do things that would amaze normal people.  Simply because in movies they may be dramatized slightly does not turn it entirely into a fantasy setting because of that...


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2005 11:27 pm 
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Blackthorne519 wrote:
Lemme tell you, if they bend things, it's not the real world.  In fact, there is no such thing as the real world, is there?


Excuse me for getting metaphysical, but... it is uncertain what exactly the real world is. Is "The Aviator" the real world? Because it states so and is based on history. Is "The Matrix" the real world? According to its own premise, it may well be, and if it were then you would never know the difference.

In fact, truth is stranger than fiction... for instance, according to quantum physics, spontaneous teleportation is entirely possible. It's just bloody unlikely for anything larger than a subatomic particle - but it IS possible. In the real world. Would you accept a film in which it happened as real?

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2005 11:45 pm 
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it is uncertain what exactly the real world is

Move your eyes away from the moniter screen. See that? Thats the real world. :p


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2005 1:16 am 
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I don't think thats what they mean. to me if someone says the real world I think of the "underground" world of drugs and illegal activitiesbut what they refer to is the whole are you in a real world? from the perspective of imagine being an ant. imagine a human walking up to you way up in the sky. Now imagine standing somewhere. and something to that ratio apperas infront of you. Are we just insects to another being? how far does it go? of course its unlikly but possible. I once experienced something quite odd. I went through all of grade 8 with one pencil that wore down quite a bit. around the end of the year it had a couple things to it. "a pin mark from a poppy and some blood from where the poppy stabbed me. as well the eraser didn't work because it got wet. Now one day I pulled the pencil from my desk to write  a note when i placed it down. forgetting that the pencil was on my desk I reached in to get it again. no normally I would feel nothing and be like oh ya it's behiend my binder. But I grabbed it and pulled it out. then I was confused and picked up the other one and held them together. they were both the exact smae with the same features. the pencil had duplicated! and to this day I will never understand what happened. back on topic I myself being a martial artist of 5 years can understand people being amazed by simple things (hurrican thrusts, staff spinning, knowledge of all pressure points, etc) even earlier today I impressed my boss by spinning a calendar rod like a staff. She started freaking out and made everyone in the room watch. :lol however you cannot defy gravity in anyway. what comes up falls twice (is it twice?) as fast. I've seen some crazy shit in my day. I've jumped 6-7 feet in the air (only to dislocate my knee) I've seen a guy kick at n opponent where the opponent grabbed hi foot and made him do a backflip. I've even run on walls 3  (almost 4) steps but you can't float and you can't run up a wall for more than about 2 strides. I've even seen (and used to be able to do) no-handed cartwheels and all of these feats were the highlights of my 5 years and very impressive but in no way have I myself ever seen anything so crazy as to not be considered possible and in my book seeing is believing. Now I DO believe in particle duplication as I've seen it although I have no hard evidence.

If they meant the real world as in Metla Gear Solid 2's "what is real?" kind of sense then I completly missed.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2005 2:21 am 
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Radiant wrote:
Blackthorne519 wrote:
Lemme tell you, if they bend things, it's not the real world.  In fact, there is no such thing as the real world, is there?


Excuse me for getting metaphysical, but... it is uncertain what exactly the real world is. Is "The Aviator" the real world? Because it states so and is based on history. Is "The Matrix" the real world? According to its own premise, it may well be, and if it were then you would never know the difference.

In fact, truth is stranger than fiction... for instance, according to quantum physics, spontaneous teleportation is entirely possible. It's just bloody unlikely for anything larger than a subatomic particle - but it IS possible. In the real world. Would you accept a film in which it happened as real?


No, because it's film.  It's a story - fiction, meant to entertain.  Myth and legend have always been a part of human culture, and great exagerations of the truths of time and space have always been a part of them. (SEE: Bible) But there are certain things which cannot be accomplished in this world without changing laws of living (ie Physics or Biology), and when these occcur in a story, it's fantasy.  

Take the film "Howard The Duck" for instance.  Howard comes from an alternate planet where Ducks were the evolutionary species.  However, in the view of his planet, Ducks developed society JUST like humans, except more "ducky".  We do this because we're seeing it from our perspective, a human perspective, but also because it's fantasy, and not any sort of real conjecture.  So, howard lands in Cleveland, 1986 and is rescued by a girl, and he tries to get back home, with the help of a young hapless student and some wonky physics, courtsey of George Lucas.  In the end, he ends up fighting a giant space demon!  All fantasy, set in a world that is MUCH like the real world was in 1986, though it was a fantasy one as in reality Howard was just a midget running around in a suit constructed by ILM and the Space Demon was a giant articulated puppet by Phil Tippet that was optically composited into shots.

As soon as the impossible is injected into your story, it becomes an esoteric place that exists only in the minds eye.  It may have much in common with the real world, but again, any rule can be broken if one is.  

Bt

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2005 6:36 am 
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Because it states so and is based on history.

There's a BIG difference between history and something based on history. For example, today I saw a docudrama about the life of Michael Jackson. While it was BASED on Michael Jackson's life, I seriously doubt that it was anything near what it was really like. What about Oliver Stone films? Was that the real world? Alexander the Great was a real life person who lived during the periods of Ancient Greece. Does that make the events of "Alexander" exactly what happened?

Just because something says it's something doesn't make it that something. I mean, look at us now. My name's not really Kurdt and your name's not really Radiant. However, we're Kurdt and Radiant here. Does that make it real life? Seems true enough to me. But, and I hate to burst your bubbles, it's not. This life is nothing more than words on screen.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2005 9:54 am 
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There's a BIG difference between history and something based on history.


I know :) I just enjoy playing devil's advocate too much.

However - history, at least for most people, is a set of common memories. If you manage (through extensive propaganda, or documentaries, or whatever) to change the consensual memory, then for most intents and purposes you have changed history. 1984 does it all the time.

But this does happen in real life. The movies we've mentioned aren't the most terrific examples, but documentaries (and some shady news reporting) are. For instance, the JFK murder. It is a real event, and something happened. But its influence on today's events lies not in what actually happened, but in what people believe happened. So what, then, is real? Is it the One Truth which we are unable to recover? Or is it the half-truth which affects our lives because most everybody believes it?


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As soon as the impossible is injected into your story, it becomes an esoteric place that exists only in the minds eye.

Okay, but what if merely the highly unlikely is injected into the story? E.g. films like Serendipity? Or 40 days/40 nights? Or any of a number of urban legends?

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2005 2:11 pm 
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Historical Accuracy + Monsters Running around = F***** BULLS*** !!!!!

There were never monsters.

FANTASY=WHATEVER THE HELL YOU FEEL LIKE!

ARGH!

You people drive me to drink.

Bt


BT, calm down will ya? It's just a simple discussion, no need to get so tensed! :)

Anyway, I HAVE played an RPG called Darklands. It was made back in 1992 and it designed to be FAR more realistic than fantasy-like. In fact, most of the 'fanatasy' elements are in reality Christian stories (I.E. Deals with the devil, witches, that sort of thing), it did have elements like werewolves and dragons, but I never actually met them. The game is designed to have a very real touch as to how it could have been back then and it was very well made, IMHO. Of course, I will not deny that it didn't have its share of problems, but it was made back in 1992 and I do believe that the game programmers were interested in a little simplicity. :)

I don't really agree that 'Fantasy=whatever the hell you like', sometimes having completely impossible and totally ridicules things and really childish ideas. I've personally seen fantasy stories and websites that completely replused me for their complete disregard for any bit of realism, logic, or at least practicality! They produced utter bullshit. Sadly, some of them because popular :\


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2005 4:51 pm 
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Paladinlover wrote:
I don't really agree that 'Fantasy=whatever the hell you like', sometimes having completely impossible and totally ridicules things and really childish ideas. I've personally seen fantasy stories and websites that completely replused me for their complete disregard for any bit of realism, logic, or at least practicality! They produced utter bullshit. Sadly, some of them because popular :\


So why are we able to suspend our disbelief for somethings, and not for others?  The Lord Of The Rings, for example - there are basis in Norse/English/European mythos, but why is one easily able to accept goblins, orcs, Nazgul, Ringwraiths and giant spiders?  Those are all, for all intents and purposes, childish and they disregard realism and logic.

Bt

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2005 5:31 pm 
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Mythology is a vital part of human existence.  It's not childish.  At least no more childish than logic or reason.

Logic and reason have their place in life, but are incapable of answering big question at the same time.  Does God exist, do I exist, etc.

Why do we look to science for our answers?  Does it make things real?  Is a rainbow real?  You can see it.  But it's an optical illusion that's only visible from a certain angle.  Does it only become real once we subject it to analysis?

I've come to believe that if I can see it, it's real, if I can't see it it very well might be real.  Somebody said that the universe is not only stranger than we imagine but stranger than we are capable of imagining.

Now, I don't think it's likely that monsters once walked the earth, but I think it's significant that human beings are so willing to suspend their disbelief.  I see it as hardwired into our brains, probably a placeholder for something far stranger than we can currently imagine.

Furthermore, I think reality in large part is whatever you decide it to be.  Is your "real" name Kurdt?  Why not?  Why is your given name more "real?"  Because you've chosen to put faith in a set of social contracts that places validity on that given name.  But is there something inherent in the nature of your flesh or your soul or whatever that is perfectly described with your given name for which Kurdt will not work?  I don't think so.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2005 8:33 pm 
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I think you guys are putting waaay too much thought into this.

I ' T S  J U S T  A  G A M E ! ! !


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2005 8:53 pm 
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I ' T S  J U S T  A  G A M E ! ! !


Heh.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2005 9:18 pm 
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Jafar wrote:
I think you guys are putting waaay too much thought into this.

I ' T S  J U S T  A  G A M E ! ! !


In general, my reaction as well.  I'm simply stating that I believe in no borders, limits or boundries in fantasy.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2005 9:46 pm 
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Blackthorne519 wrote:
So why are we able to suspend our disbelief for somethings, and not for others?   Those are all, for all intents and purposes, childish and they disregard realism and logic.


Precisely because they disregard realism, but not logic. This is a bit tricky because we're probably using different definitions of the words. I consider something realistic if it could plausibly happen in real life (regardless of whether it happens or has happened). I consider something logical if it's internally consistent. For instance, LotR logically makes sense, but the Spongebob movie does not (it's still fun to watch, moreso because of that). That's what suspension of disbelief is all about. If in LotR, Frodo sprouted wings, that would break disbelief because hobbits aren't supposed to sprout wings.

One of the fun things about science is that most people do not actually believe it. Sure, they believe in Newtonian physics and basic things like sound waves - but if you start talking about advanced topics like the edge of the universe, or quantum tunneling effects, people tend to disbelieve.

I would say that Radiant is one of my names. It is a moniker by which people recognize me, and to which I would respond. That it was not given to me by my parents is not the point.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2005 11:02 pm 
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Radiant wrote:
Blackthorne519 wrote:
So why are we able to suspend our disbelief for somethings, and not for others?   Those are all, for all intents and purposes, childish and they disregard realism and logic.


Precisely because they disregard realism, but not logic. This is a bit tricky because we're probably using different definitions of the words. I consider something realistic if it could plausibly happen in real life (regardless of whether it happens or has happened). I consider something logical if it's internally consistent. For instance, LotR logically makes sense, but the Spongebob movie does not (it's still fun to watch, moreso because of that). That's what suspension of disbelief is all about. If in LotR, Frodo sprouted wings, that would break disbelief because hobbits aren't supposed to sprout wings.


That's a good point, true. I'm just thinking though, why aren't Hobbits supposed to sprout wings?  We take it for granted that they are a relative homind, homo-sapiens offshoot, don't we?  And that they can't have wings.  They could have wings, however, if Tolkien wanted them too.  It's his creation; his choice, I suppose.


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I would say that Radiant is one of my names. It is a moniker by which people recognize me, and to which I would respond. That it was not given to me by my parents is not the point.


Oh, totally!  I get random IM's from people, who constantly refer to me as "Bt" or "BT" - but the funniest part is when I get IM's from people who know me, AND know my real name, and still call me Bt.  Heh.  I dunno why we came up with NetHandles to begin with; I guess in the beginning, I assumed there would be lots of Steve's out there - and it was cool to have a streamlined name like "Blackthorne".  Blackthorne sounds like a guy that could beat you up; Steve sounds like the dude at McDonalds that's askin' "Dou you want fries with that?"  Sigh.  Anyhoo... net handles sometimes become ingrained on who you are.  I'm going to The Netherlands later this year to visit my friend Gerard, and I'll probably look up Radiant and Erpy to say hi - and I'll probably call them "Raidant" and "Erpy" instead of their real names, even though I know them!  Hell, I'll probably be like "Hi... I'm Blackthorne..."  heheh.  

Bt

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 11:23 am 
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Go ahead and do that. Out of curiousity, where does your friend live?

Screen handles, as far as I'm concerned, can be somewhat compared to someone's surname online. Yes, they're in order to distinguish people with the same name (like Chris :p), but they're also the name you expect everyday people to use when adressing you. In real life, dependant on the corporate culture you live in, may adress you as Mr. (insert surname here). People a little closer to you will use your first name. Likewise, I'd frown if someone who I never spoke to directly suddenly adressed me with my first name...I'd more or less expect them to use my screen name until I knew a little more of them.

Often, things depend on what name "sounds" easiest.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 2:12 pm 
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Radiant wrote:
I consider something logical if it's internally consistent.

And here we have hit upon one of Aristotle's basic tenets laid forth for all "poetry" (that is, all creative efforts) in his timeless work, Poetics. He spoke that any piece of art can be as outlandish as it wants to be, so long as it stays consistent to the universe inside the art. For example, Roger Wilco is a comedic character in a space-spoof world. If in the middle of SQ4 he started talking like Duke Nukem and started blew away the Monolith Burger manager for kicking him out of the returaunt, this would not be internally consistent. Thus, Aristotle says you can do whatever you want so long as it makes sense in the game.

(Sorry, I'm studying for my Dramatic Theory & Analysis exam)

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 3:07 pm 
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Erpy wrote:
Go ahead and do that. Out of curiousity, where does your friend live?


I believe Gerard is living in Utrecht.... but he may have moved.

Bt

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Blackthorne519 wrote:
That's a good point, true. I'm just thinking though, why aren't Hobbits supposed to sprout wings?  They could have wings, however, if Tolkien wanted them too.  It's his creation; his choice, I suppose.

It would have been believable if they had wings from the beginning. It would not be believable if they sprouted wings when dramatically convenient (i.e. deus ex machina).

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I'm going to The Netherlands later this year to visit my friend Gerard, and I'll probably look up Radiant and Erpy to say hi

Hey cool!
I live in Leiden, which is the west part (not that Holland is large by any definition of the word :) ). I haven't figured out yet where Erpy lives.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 4:40 pm 
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I live in Oirschot, which is in the southern part of the Netherlands. (between Eindhoven and Tilburg) Utrecht lies more or less in the center of the country.

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