Well...you took this down roads I wasn't expecting, but that's cool. You make some interesting points, not all of which I think fully pertain to what we were talking about, but hey, that's how conversations go right?
I don't think anyone was saying that "It isn't censorship to condemn ...something they find morally reprehensible." (sorry to shorten your quotes, just saving space), Which is very true. It is actually censorship to
ban something on moral terms or prevent the release of something on moral grounds, but to just speak out against it, nope. In fact your ability to speak out against it and their ability to say it in the first place are what freedom of speech is all about. I agree whole heartily!
And with "Not all so-called creative work is of equal value, artistic or otherwise." I also agree, and also don't think anyone was saying that, but it is a good point nonetheless. There are some truly wretched pieces of 'art' out there, but as with even the worst B-Movies, fan fictions and strange modern art, there are people out there who fund and enjoy them. Art is like beauty, in that it's all in the eye of the beholder. A few good examples of this include one of my favorite movies of all time, which is actually on the top 10 list of biggest box office bombs, or my love affair with a video game that is labeled as 'overhyped' and was critically panned but I fell in love with even it's flaws. These examples may not have much merit to others, but I like what I like and someone else obviously agrees with me enough that these things get made. I would never shut someone up for not liking them, that's their right and at the same time I would never make them play it and in return I would hope they would never stop me from saying I like it or playing it myself.
I have to admit, I love when you use statements like "I think there is near-universal agreement on much of it." I'm not being sarcastic. When I first read those, they make me stop and think, and I like when things do that. My automatic response is 'Well I don't agree!" And then in my mind, I have to justify why. It actually help me figure out my own stance on things.
I find censorship a very intriguing subject. A lot of people think certain things should be censored but nobody ever wants to be censored themselves. And in the U.S you get the added bonus of throwing 'freedom of speech' into the whole mix. We have to remember that just because our way of life or way of thinking works for us, doesn't mean it will work for others in other situations. Censorship for one means censorship for all. An example: Creationist think evolution in school is detrimental, scientific minded folks think creationism is detrimental in schools. The result? In some schools you can't teach either. You learn nothing, which is not the same as letting someone make up their own mind about things. With ignorance, nothing progresses.
Lets say you're making a game that show Nazi's from a sympathetic view (which is a bit unrealistic anyway,seeing as you'd have to fund someone to fun such a project, not to mention any studios that would want their names attached to such a thing), and it actually gets made. Odds are most people wont even try it, most who do will throw it down and say it's stupid, critics will call it out on it's content and those that do enjoy it probably didn't have their minds changed by it, but already thought that way. Anyone whose mind is changed by it most likely would have done the same thing if they'd watched a Nazi Documentary and saw their well made uniforms. They'll probably get put in their place soon enough (as I had to do with one of my friends in Junior high after she watched a nazi sympathetic movie) and be on to the next thing their easily moldable minds get a hold of, but you have to give people enough credit to judge what they see (or play) for themselves so that they can think for themselves. By shutting things down you're shutting down critical thinking and encouraging mindless herd behavior, which leaves them even more susceptible to being led by bad influences.
Which leads back to the first example, anyone whose worried about losing their religious or scientific beliefs after one science class didn't have much conviction in the first place. Anyone worried about turning into nazi sympathizers after playing a game doesn't have much faith in themselves. Worried about someone else? Well kids aren't going to understand the politics behind it (I never did with any of the things I saw as a kid. It took me well into my teens to rewatch and finally Understand thet bedknobs and Broomsticks took place during world war 2), teenagers would most likely research it and for their own opinions from there and adults should hopefully look at these things critically. Anyone who picks up a controller and virtually steals a car and goes outside and shoots a cop was on the verge or terribly unbalanced as it is. Odds are if they'd turned on news and saw the same thing, they would have emulated that instead.
So why should certain things in games be censored or banned?
Obviously I don't believe they should. If you come across something blatantly disagreeable in a game (as I have in the past) then shut the game off, give it bad reviews online and return it to the store, but to censor or ban something because you personally find it disagreeable, in this world made up of radically different people, seems quite childish.
Almost done, I promise!
I'd like to make one more statement:
The world in which these moral outrageous take place are virtual. Choices made in the game do not reflect on the person in reality. They're made so that we can do things that we can't in real life, like fly, shoot zombies or roll houses into balls to be shot into the sky and turned into stars. Real morality doesn't play into it.
I can't see anyone in the entire world playing Grand Theft Auto running over a civilian and loosing sleep over it, but in real life if you hit a pedestrian you'd be shaken, scared and probably crying (And probably drive them to a hospital if you're a good person but I don't want to talk about it
)
These things don't translate from one reality to another, because they're not real, there are no real sacrifices, emotional or moral consequences to your actions, and there shouldn't be. Games are meant to be, above all else, fun. If I had to sit through a game making all the choices that I would really make, well it would be so boring I'd probably have my in game character playing a game to relieve the boredom.
TO SUM IT ALL UP:
Games = Fun
Censorship = Ignorance
Virtual Reality =/= Real Morality
(In my opinion)
Man, sorry I wrote all that guys. Blame the fact that I'm trapped in the apartment all day or what. I invite pbpb33 back to the debating thread if he'd like to continue a discussion on censorship. If not I completely understand, I did not mean for this post to turn into this.