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 Post subject: Re: Telltale to Reboot King's Quest
PostPosted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 10:47 am 
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Okay, I can see why they'd go after it, but it's like Pepsi selling toothpaste. It just doesn't feel right. If something KQ is going to be made, let it be done by developers who will do the series the justice it deserves. Why risk making an average KQ game by putting it in the hands of someone who has no prior track-record with the series, when you could increase the chances of it being both well-received and successful on a wider scale by leaving it to developers you can be sure will respect the gameplay mechanics and keep the charm of the originals intact, based on prior experience? You see, it can either be done, or it can be done very well. And if BTTF is any indication, KQ Reboot isn't headed in the direction of greatness (and their BTTF game even had Bob Gale's involvement!) It proves that getting original writers or designers involved is no guarantee that a great game will be produced at the end of the process. Roberta Williams also demonstrated that with Mask of Eternity. I'm judging things only on Telltale's track-record of what they've released so far.

If the only people who end up enjoying KQ Reboot are TellTale fanboys, then it defeats the purpose of going after the IP in the first place and trying to win over KQ fans.

And, yes, I was referring to them picking up the Full Throttle series (as new adventure games) after the LucasArts sequels were canned - not making direct sequels in the action style.


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 Post subject: Re: Telltale to Reboot King's Quest
PostPosted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 2:25 pm 
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Pepsi selling toothpaste is a good analogy. Based on the Dave Grossman quote posted earlier, though, to me it sounds worse than that. It’s somewhat like an anti-American person charged with organizing a US Independence Day parade celebration. Put another way, it’s like a decidedly non-fan of a particular franchise being put in charge of reviving that franchise. (Does anyone know what kind of involvement Grossman is going to have in the development of the new KQ games, by the way? I’m assuming that he has some kind of leadership role in the project.) In the quote, Grossman can barely muster any praise for the original KQ games, saying only that the games were "interesting" and their "arbitrary” puzzles sometimes "amusing." He seems so dismissive in the way in which he talks about the "old schoolies," to use his term. Why even revisit the KQ series (or any classic Sierra titles, for that matter) if you seem to hold these games in such low regard? Based on his quote, he seems to think that there is no middle ground between games with impossible, illogical puzzles and games that are more like stories that happen to have incidental, dull, easy, straightforward puzzles. This seems strange, given his involvement in the development of some truly great, though, if I may say so, often too short, LucasArts adventure games. What he said about Sierra designers apparently not thinking about what it would be like to play their own games, but instead designing puzzles that serve primarily to make themselves look clever, also seems a bit ignorant to me. I understand the point he is trying to make, and realize he is probably purposefully exaggerating a bit, but I think he is still unfairly painting all those classic games with a very broad brush. Did he ever play Leisure Suit Larry 7? Like Lambonius, I have never had much desire to replay one of the newer episodic games, but I enjoy revisiting many of the classic adventure games, which often had larger, more detailed worlds to explore, rather than simply a string of scripted scenes strung together by some easy gameplay. Oh, and Grossman’s pat, clichéd comment about “modern players” needing the right kinds of games to fit into their “busy lives” also strikes me as moronic and uninformed. Were people less busy back then? Are people too busy these days to engage in types of entertainment that might require some extra patience? Last I checked, there was still a strong market for print novels, even lengthy ones.

Maybe I’m reading too much into one quote, but it’s all I have to go on at the moment… and I’m definitely not feeling optimistic about Telltale’s KQ effort. I would be interested to see the rest of what Dave Grossman and other Telltale people have said about their new KQ games. Still, as a classic adventure game fan, I ask myself if maybe it’s better to get new KQ games, any new KQ games, even shorter episodic KQ games with dumbed down puzzles, rather than no new KQ games at all. Well, my conclusion is that no new KQ games would be preferable in this case. Improvements to a series are well and good, so long as you RESPECT the original, keep intact the essence of the original and have an appreciation of the value of the original's fundamental gameplay aspects. Thankfully, there are fan projects like those from AGDI, IA and, to a lesser extent, POS (no offense to POS… I’ve only played through one episode of TSL and, while aspects of their work is impressive, their design choices, at least so far, seem to place little emphasis on clever, challenging puzzles… though I have yet to play the rest of the game) that seem to better understand what made the classic games so fun. Unlike Grossman, who, judging from some of his remarks, seems like no big fan at all of the old school Sierra adventures, at least the people on the fan project teams are actual fans of these classic adventure games.


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 Post subject: Re: Telltale to Reboot King's Quest
PostPosted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 7:31 pm 
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pbpb33 wrote:
Thankfully, there are fan projects like those from AGDI, IA and, to a lesser extent, POS (no offense to POS… I’ve only played through one episode of TSL and, while aspects of their work is impressive, their design choices, at least so far, seem to place little emphasis on clever, challenging puzzles… though I have yet to play the rest of the game) that seem to better understand what made the classic games so fun.


To be fair, episode 2 was a lot better about the puzzles, and supposedly episode 3's (haven't gotten it running on my Mac yet) puzzles are quite a bit better--multi-part, more complicated solutions, etc. On the other hand, from what I've heard, those who had any reservations about the story, tone, and writing style will see those reservations confirmed and surpassed beyond their wildest nightmares. lol


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 Post subject: Re: Telltale to Reboot King's Quest
PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 4:53 am 
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I, too am concerned about a Telltale remake. I'll probably sit back and let everyone tell me if their KQ reboot is worth a try.

I LOVED the classic Sam and Max game, and was excited to play the new episodic ones. They were fun at first and looked gorgeous, but soon got repetitive, wacky/creepy in a bad way, and just plain boring. So, I don't have much faith in them at this point. It just feels like Telltale is trying to make a cheap buck on those who like to complete collections and series.

When there's a remake or reboot, I hope that whomever writes them is absolutely obsessed with the story's history, details, characters, etc. If they want to take the story a different route, respect to original is essential for me. If the original material is good to begin with, you're going to catch the old fans, and an update will bring in new fans. I think it's a simple formula. Good examples in my opinion are the tv show Smallville, and the new Star Trek movie.

Lambonius - I just finished TSL's ep 3. I can tell they put a lot of work into it, and it seems like they listened to fan feedback about gameplay. As for the reservations - you'll have to see for yourself ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Telltale to Reboot King's Quest
PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 11:17 pm 
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Hate to possibly start another fire in this thread (there's some very heated opinions about this), but am I the only one thats actually excited about this? For one, while I do admire the telltale's gaming I'm not a fanboy (even I admit while the jokes are good, Sam n Max got old, and fearing that if they don't amp up the puzzles, Back to the Future is gonna turn out the same. Cry....), and two, honestly a fresh start could be all the series (and the other Sierra titles; oh gods please Quest for Glory 6!!!!) needs. Revamps are not horrible.

As for no deaths... I'm really biting my lip about that one. LucasArts and TTG are notorious for no deaths, but a true fanboy of any Sierra played the games just to see the funny death scenes. If they take away the death scenes... well, it won't feel right. BUT, TTG is real good at capturing the feel of licenses they take, even if they dumb them down a little.

And more story than puzzle? Ever played Tales of Monkey Island? LOL

What I'm rambling about is, I'm actually very excited. If they do it right, it could be the spark to re-kindle our fires here, guys. Don't go into it going "OMG they are gonna suxx0rs its!!!!!!" but look at it like it is, a chance to officially come to Daventry one more time. And who knows what will happen in the future?

Or maybe I'm just a Telltale fanboy. |I

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 Post subject: Re: Telltale to Reboot King's Quest
PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 11:48 pm 
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Well, there's more behind the story about why I'm not very happy about it. It has less to do with the kind of game they'll make and more about how they went about this entire thing. But I can't say anything more at the moment.


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 Post subject: Re: Telltale to Reboot King's Quest
PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 2:03 am 
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It's alright. AGDI will always have the distinction of having done four kickass fan remakes. No one can ever take that away from you.


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 Post subject: Re: Telltale to Reboot King's Quest
PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 2:07 am 
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Seriously, AGDI set the bar for fan remakes and fan-game developers - I know IA, despite our early spats, was truly influenced and guided by the work AGDI on their fangames. We wouldn't have come together without them... I'm glad they're taking things in a professional direction with Himalaya Studios.


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 Post subject: Re: Telltale to Reboot King's Quest
PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 2:45 am 
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Unfortunately for AGDI, Telltale do 3D which I reakon is something Activision would want. 2D is awesome and I love it, but we limit our audience straight away by not doing 3D.

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 Post subject: Re: Telltale to Reboot King's Quest
PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 3:16 am 
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Yeah I think many fans can see why it went to Telltale but would have loved it to go to AGDI. For me I would have loved a an original kq by agdi, one of the most appealing factors would be a large game and not an episodic release

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 Post subject: Re: Telltale to Reboot King's Quest
PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 3:40 am 
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It should have gone to AGDI. That is a no brainer. AGDI has proven themselves time and again. They understand how to make amazing, truly epic adventures and are in touch with what many fans of these games want. I want AGDI/Himalaya to have (and believe they will have) a massive hit with one of their future original releases!! They more than deserve it.


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 Post subject: Re: Telltale to Reboot King's Quest
PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 4:10 am 
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It should have gone to AGDI. That is a no brainer. AGDI has proven themselves time and again

Agdi have proven that they can produce quality prouducts that remain true to the kings quest spirit, no doubt about that. However they haven't proved themselves commercially. Telltale have also been successful in bringing back old adventure IP but have a proven track record with commercial title

I wish it had gone to AGDI but can see why telltale got it. My dream would be for AGDI to work with Telltale on the reboot but that seems extremely unlikely

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 Post subject: Re: Telltale to Reboot King's Quest
PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 4:46 am 
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It's a shame that Telltale couldn't just do their dinky little KQ episodes or whatever they think people want, while letting AGDI do proper, full, grand new KQ adventure games. I don't know about the details of all the rights ownership issues, and I think I remember someone earlier posting that Telltale will be the only ones able to make new KQ games from now on... So that's it for the KQ series? Telltale episodes are the future of KQ in the forseeable future? :( Was the timing of Telltale's KQ announcement affected at all by the POS and AGDI game releases this month?


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 Post subject: Re: Telltale to Reboot King's Quest
PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 9:09 am 
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To end any speculation, we weren't rejected in favour of TellTale for producing a new King's Quest game or anything like that. In fact, I didn't even know they were going for the IP until their conference where they announced the news.

But we had been working towards a specific goal for the past decade, and would have been very close to reaching that goal after KQ3 Redux. However, that said, all is not lost and it looks like some positive developments might even arise from it!

Quote:
Unfortunately for AGDI, Telltale do 3D which I reakon is something Activision would want. 2D is awesome and I love it, but we limit our audience straight away by not doing 3D.


You might be surprised! As someone else mentioned earlier in the thread, the Sierra games are a niche and there's no sense attempting to make mega-bucks out of them by trying to make them appeal to the widest audience possible. There are plenty of other franchises a game company could acquire for that purpose. All you'd need to do is target the existing the niche and make that audience very happy, you'll get new customers in the process, and it won't matter if the game is 2D. Also, 2D is not seen so much as being outdated these days, in light of LucasArts' Monkey Island releases. And as someone said, the prevalence of 2D in the indie development scene has even made 2D look cool as an artistic choice (even TellTale did it with Puzzle Agent).

For example, IF a new Sierra sequel was produced, would most hardcore Sierra fans actually want to see it in 3D? Or would they prefer a 2D adventure that follows directly in the style of the games they're used to playing? If you cater to what the niche audience wants, I guarantee you'll get happier customers, a higher-rated product within the niche, and do the series justice.


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 Post subject: Re: Telltale to Reboot King's Quest
PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 11:39 am 
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I have to say that I've played the demo of Heavy Rain, and it looks like the kind of graphic adventure I would do in 3D. The interface reminded me of the one in Shadow of the Comet, and I always liked the timed events on the Dragon's Lair games. The use of 3D is very powerful to create immersion, that is, making you feel that you are the one inside the game, because the effect of the camera following you is like the 1st person view of the early adventure games.

I don't know if this effect could be recreated as effectively in traditional 2D adventure games, but maybe they could compensate in other ways. Each medium has its advantages, and I think Telltale's hybrid approach doesn't make the best use of any of them.

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 Post subject: Re: Telltale to Reboot King's Quest
PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 2:10 pm 
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The main way I've seen 3D being an important asset to the Telltale games is that it makes them more cinematic with all the changing camera angles.

Besides Heavy Rain, what other adventure games in 3D were better games because of their being in 3D? I'm not trying to make any point here by asking... I'm actually just curious. I guess it can be hard to say because a bad game in 2D is probably still a bad game in 3D. 3D certainly has the potential to be more immersive, to allow for more exploration in an environment that feels more real and alive, and to have cinematic cutscenes with lots of camera angles and in the same visual style as the regular gameplay.

Well, I love the look of hand-painted characters and backgrounds and cel animation. I think those things will always be preferred by a group of people.


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 Post subject: Re: Telltale to Reboot King's Quest
PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 2:15 pm 
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pbpb33 wrote:
The main way I've seen 3D being an important asset to the Telltale games is that it makes them more cinematic with all the changing camera angles.

Besides Heavy Rain, what other adventure games in 3D were better games because of their being in 3D?
The Alone in the Dark saga was 3D sprites on 2D backgrounds with changing cameras, a system which was later used in Final Fantasy VII, which is the most popular of the saga (and incidentally the only one using this system), and Resident Evil, which borrows heavily from Alone in the Dark and was also insanely popular.

I think something like Alone in the Dark could be replicated with pure 2D graphics.

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 Post subject: Re: Telltale to Reboot King's Quest
PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 2:21 pm 
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Wow, I remember Alone in the Dark! That was a really fun game. Anyway, I hate the idea that 2D is obsolete or that 3D necessarily means superior gameplay options. It's just not always necessary. Why can't we have variety? Also, why are some people opposed to 2D right off the bat? Is it because they associate it with being old-fashioned and limiting? They think the game feels slower, static, less exciting?


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 Post subject: Re: Telltale to Reboot King's Quest
PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 12:08 am 
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I think traditional 2D is simply a timeless style that has a lot of charm. I mean look at traditional animation in Disney's Beauty and the Beast, the Lion King, Aladdin, and even the old films like Pinocchio and Cinderella. I've always be very impressed at how those 2D Disney animators, as far back as the 1930's, made such fantastic works.

Now look at Disney's more recent 3D animated films like Toy Story and Finding Nemo. The 3D animation and sterile scenes can't touch the magic that those classics had with their traditional 2D animation. Granted, "Twisted" looks like a much better marriage between the two styles, but it's still missing that hand-drawn appeal where you know a lot of people painstakingly hand-drew and animated every single frame to make an entire film.

I know from doing all of our character animations in Al Emmo with 3D Studio and Maya, how much faster and easier it is to animate 3D characters in games. You just move the bones in place, click a button and it renders out a complete animation in seconds. In our new Himalaya Studios game, we're using stylized pixel art instead, where each frame is done individually by hand and takes about 30-40 minutes to finish a single one. And that's with a skilled artist who works very quickly.

I don't think I have actually ever seen a 3D game yet that couldn't have been done in 2D. Full throttle was brilliantly done in 2D with the same kind of cutscenes that TellTale's games use. It's just a matter of implementation, really.

I think people who grew up with 2D or those who know the history behind it will always value that style because it equates to a great amount of quality and effort. You know that people who work with 2D are usually meticulous and less likely to rush things to completion. Whereas with 3D stuff, it can almost feel like a shortcut. That's not to say hard work isn't involved with 3D... just a lot less hard work than 2D.


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 Post subject: Re: Telltale to Reboot King's Quest
PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 1:16 am 
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Sorry, I can't agree with you about Pixar's movies (not Disney!), they're stunning and not sterile at all. Disney's own 3D movies like Tangled, Meet the Robinsons, Chicken Little, etc that weren't made by Pixar, however, are horrible.

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 Post subject: Re: Telltale to Reboot King's Quest
PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 2:02 am 
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Would have to agree with MI pixar's artwork is stunning.

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 Post subject: Re: Telltale to Reboot King's Quest
PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 3:54 am 
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Anonymous Game Creator 2 wrote:
Well, there's more behind the story about why I'm not very happy about it. It has less to do with the kind of game they'll make and more about how they went about this entire thing. But I can't say anything more at the moment.


I am 100% positive that they got this license because of all the hard work you guys, IA and POS have done. You've peaked my curiosity with that post though.


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 Post subject: Re: Telltale to Reboot King's Quest
PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 4:47 am 
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My curiosity was also peaked but I also wonder if something had changed in the time between this post

Quote:
Well, there's more behind the story about why I'm not very happy about it. It has less to do with the kind of game they'll make and more about how they went about this entire thing. But I can't say anything more at the moment.
Well, there's more behind the story about why I'm not very happy about it. It has less to do with the kind of game they'll make and more about how they went about this entire thing. But I can't say anything more at the moment.


and this one

Quote:
But we had been working towards a specific goal for the past decade, and would have been very close to reaching that goal after KQ3 Redux. However, that said, all is not lost and it looks like some positive developments might even arise from it!


Has something happend that has changed him from being not very happy to looking at some positive developments?

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 Post subject: Re: Telltale to Reboot King's Quest
PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 5:53 am 
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Yes I saw that post. That made me wonder even more. I really hope that TellTale hasn't spoiled something that could have been great for AGDI. I'm thinking along the lines ofthem being granted ownership of KQ IP? Or is that to grand of thinking? This mystery has me more excited than I am about KQ3Rdx.... Ok that's not true. But it has me very worked up.

I took a look over at the KQ forum at TTG and have got some really mixed emotions at the moment. I don't think TTG should have made the KQ announcement the way they did. I think they should have waited until they had something to show for it. At least when they announce Monkey Island they had a trailer.


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 Post subject: Re: Telltale to Reboot King's Quest
PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 9:43 am 
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Quote:
Sorry, I can't agree with you about Pixar's movies (not Disney!), they're stunning and not sterile at all. Disney's own 3D movies like Tangled, Meet the Robinsons, Chicken Little, etc that weren't made by Pixar, however, are horrible.


Oops! :o I had those Pixar examples up there from a previous point I was making, which I deleted. I meant to change the titles (and I was going to add Chicken Little, too!) but I forgot to go back and do it. I agree that Pixar are the king's of 3D animation and their work is great. I thought The Polar Express was quite impressive (visually) as well. But I still do prefer the traditional 2D-style Disney animation over even the best-looking 3D.

Telltale's KQ announcement is more likely about them simply wanting to announce to the world that they have the licensing rights at this stage. I'm sure their title will sell well, even if it's not true to the KQ series, because let's face it, even customers who claim that TellTale games are mediocre continue to buy their stuff in hopes that they'll improve. Personally I could only wish for such lenient and forgiving customers! Remember, once you've forked over money, you've supported a game's design decisions, even if you're doing so just to "check it out" or "because it's cheap". In my opinion, that can easily give a faulty indication to developers that they've taken a franchise in the right direction, when, in fact they may not have. Good sales and a good game aren't always mutually exclusive.

I don't want to go into any specifics, but for the first time in over 10 years there is a very real chance of seeing true Sierra games made the way they were intended to be made by the kind of people who know how to make them. The prospect of TellTale monopolizing the entire Sierra IP range is not an ideal one. So if you are a Sierra fan, and you would like to see *proper* Quest games made that will do justice to those series', please let Activision know. Please do not slander Telltale, though. They have the KQ rights now and they will make their game regardless. As Sierra fans, you should simply let Activision know your true thoughts on the direction you think these classic adventure games should take in the future so the feedback aids them in making the right choices.


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