whats the point for KQ1 VGA?

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Christopholy

whats the point for KQ1 VGA?

#1 Post by Christopholy » Tue May 08, 2001 3:48 am

When sierra already re-made it?

Found your link from the AGS site.

Why not remake KQ2? That would be a better idea. ;)

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When sierra already re-made it? Found your link from the AGS site. Why not remake KQ2? That would be a better idea. ;) Image "No thanks...I try to keep the number of large pointy things in my pants to a minimum." --Guybrush Threepwood (Escape from Monkey Island) dinoX~GiB~ - proud member of TFC Clan ~GiB~

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Re: whats the point for KQ1 VGA?

#2 Post by Anonymous Game Creator 2 » Tue May 08, 2001 4:12 am

Hi Christopholy, welcome to the site:) We actually weren't planning on doing the KQ1 VGA remake originally. In the beginning, we were only going to make Royal Quest. But after seeing that most of the animations and things could be re-used in both games we figured "Why not remake KQ1 as well?" So we did. :)

KQ 1 was really made just so we would have a project to work on with AGS... something that we could gain experience from, making games. The sierra KQ1 remake only had 16 colors and you still had to type your commands into the parser. Our remake of KQ1 will feature improved graphics, updated music and will have a point and click interface, like KQ5 and KQ6. We're also looking into the possibility of remaking more old sierra games in the future. Check out the General forum if you want to have your say in the poll for which old sierra game(s) you would like to see remade in VGA.

Sopfen

careful...

#3 Post by Sopfen » Thu May 17, 2001 12:55 pm

Hmmm. I read an article about you somewhere, and wanted to say that I am against remakes of older games unless they are properly done.

Seeing a classical game be remade with poor graphics, and obvious rip-offs from other games, can lessen the credibilty and enjoyablity of a classic game. You might even say it ruins the games reputation. Its like taking a JRR tolken book, and rewriting it with the same name and trying to make it a hit.

I would like to see an old sierra game remade by professionals and not amatures. When amatures remake a game, there suddenly becomes less apeal for a REAL remake and thus a professional version is never even considered.

Just my thoughts.
-Sopfen

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Re: careful...

#4 Post by Milan Easton » Fri May 18, 2001 12:46 am

Hi Sopfen, welcome to our site! Well, I can see why you would be worried, and very suspicious of our games, considering the quality of many, if not most, of the amatuer adventure games out there at the moment. But, I'm glad to be able to say, the graphics of our game are almost indistinguishable from the latter Sierra games. We took a lot of time and effort perfecting our backgrounds to keep them faithful to the standards used in the King's Quest VGA games (we tried to acheive the look found in the fifth KQ game. In fact, I don't know if you've checked our screenshots section or not, but all of those backgrounds have been further modified to look even more pleasing than before. Those were actually only semi completed backgrounds, but they were all I had at my computer at the time of making this website.
You seem to have pretty strong opinions that a fan made game cannot look professional, which is sad, because fanmade games are created in hopes that people like you can relive the old adventure games. You seem to really like the old Sierra games, and now that they've shut down Yosemite, the only chance you may have to play more of those games is to rely on fanmade projects. Our remake of King's Quest 1 is entirely faithful to the Sierra game, and I think you'd be surprised with the results. And, I think you're really missing out if you don't give them a chance, but you have to make the ultimate decision if you want to play, so I'm definitely not going to beg you to like our game.
Have you ever seen Vonster's Space Quest game? It's a fan made game, and in my opinion, is as good, if not better than the originals. He captured the exact same feelings, with the same graphics as the old games, and there are thousands of people that play his games and agree.

We didn't actually set out to make a VGA remake of the first KQ game. We decided to do this in the end, because we realized that there were many KQ fans that probably didn't want to play a parody of the game they've come to enjoy, and we didn't want to leave them out. So, we decided to put in the extra effort to offer them the game that they've always loved with updated graphics. If we'd known that the old KQ fans didn't want to play such a game, we wouldn't have taken our already scant time to make it. But, I think there are still plenty of fans out there (I've received numerous emails of praise from many of them) that are excited for the release of the KQVGA remake as well.

To give you an example of what our VGA remake is comparable to, I would say (since you brought up the comparison of books), an old version of the bible, written in some ancient language that is known by few people. Only a small number of people would be able to enjoy this bible, as it is not sold anymore, people aren't used to its writings, and people just don't relate to it or understand it. It's a total classic, that can never be replaced, and everyone respects it, and knows that the original creator of that bible is the one to be honored. But, then comes along a scribe to translate the bible into the langauge of the common day. It is still faithful to the original bible. Someone takes a lot of time and effort to painstakingly translate this old bible into a book that meets with the standards of today. Perhaps, a few disgruntled people would complain, and say, "that's not the real bible! That's a fake that can't do justice to the real thing!" But, the truth is, the real thing was written once, but it isn't going to be written again by the same person. Perhaps the publisher of the bible decided that nobody would buy the old version of the bible, because its looks are outdated, and the language it's written in isn't used anymore. So, he realizes he'd lose money on printing the book. Even the creator can't convince the publisher to let her remake the bible into todays standards, because he knows of other ventures that he can become richer in. That's why the scribe decided to translate the book for them. Not for money. Not for fame. But soley because he believes in what's written in that book, and wants others to be able to enjoy it, too. He wants to keep this book and its teachings ALIVE...just like we want to do with adventure games.
So, keep your opinions. I'm not here to try to convince you to like us or our project. I'm here to make two games for fans of the KQ series to enjoy, one being faithful to the KQ series, the other being a parody. I know that if you gave the games the chance you wouldn't be dissappointed. I only feel sorry that you can have such harsh judgements towards projects that are being made for KQ lovers like yourself, yet such hopes in a company that laid off all of it's greatest workers to make an extra dime. Our game is not meant to replace KQ, it's meant to give people the chance to relive the experience...the experience of playing a classic Sierra adventure game again as if it was their very first time playing.
And, no doubt, no matter WHAT our graphics look like, they could not possibly be any worse than the "cutting edge" AGI graphics. I understand that some people like the old 8 or 16 color games, but, I'm sure you can come to like 256 colors, too. Come on, lighten up a little, and relive the experience of playing the good old Sierra games. :)

Anonymous Game Developer #1

Sopfen

hmmm...

#5 Post by Sopfen » Fri May 18, 2001 2:01 pm

I understand your point.

Mine is somewhat different. New generations don't know about the older sierra games that you are re-making. So when your games are released, they get their first taste of the game from your creation. That's why if it is poorly done, a masterpiece is ruined for those who don't know any better.

Yes, I've seen the screenshots- Which is obvious recycled Sierra artwork. Which is one point. The other point is AGS. It's not hard to take sierra games, capture the art work, rearange them, and plug them into the AGS system. This is how I got my "opinion" about your credibility.

Furthermore, since the artwork in your games were taken from Sierra games dating back to '92, the graphics are still in a lower resolution.. which means they are still almost 10 years out of date. Re-making games that are old only to bring them back to a still outdated period is pointless don't you think?

I'm not trying to discourage your team, and you can count on me playing your game when it is released, but I'll let the games speak for themselves.

-Sopfen

P.S. I have played and completed SpaceQuest 2.5 (or 1.5?)- it was fun, but definately not better then the original SpaceQuest games.

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Re: hmmm...

#6 Post by Milan Easton » Fri May 18, 2001 4:02 pm

Hi Sopfen, good to see you back.

To address your first concern, if a new generation player hasn't experienced the old sierra games, and isn't planning on experiencing them, then there's no harm in letting them play it now. I haven't been able to find any KQ's games for sale in quite some time now, and assume that a person who's never played the series won't spend more time than myself looking for them if they don't know what they are missing. This VGA remake of ours may be the only chance they will ever have of being able to experience a classic Sierra adventure game. And, maybe they'll even be turned on to the idea of looking for the old games (and hopefully, they'll have more luck finding the games than I've had)...that was our goal in making these games. To rekindle and interest in the old Sierra games to get people playing them again. If the demand for such games go up, maybe Sierra will think about making more adventure games.

You highly underestimate our skills. We have very talented artists on our team. We've spent months creating backgrounds, animations, character dialogue pictures, sprites, etc. If we "ripped" all our graphics, then how in the world do you think we could possibly finish Royal Quest, when almost every animation in there is entirely original, and several of the characters are not found in the King's Quest game? It's dangerous to assume things before you know how we went about making these games. I admit, Graham IS the real Sir Graham, from the latter King's Quest games. But, the reason we decided to use his already created animation wasn't because we couldn't make one ourselves, but instead, because our storyline called for doing this. Originally, we didn't plan on releasing our game to the public, and found it funny that Sir Graham was really running around Daventry again. It was a very important aspect of our parody.

Making two games to enhance our skills in writing dialogues, using Photoshop, scripting, drawing, animating, learning to work as a team, and to learn project management, website design, PR, and so on is not what I call a waste of time. It's called learning. Although we'd love to be able to say we made these games with you in mind, we didn't. Our first aim was to learn how to make games. And being able to offer them to people who would enjoy them is something we thought would be nice, although it takes more time on our part..

i personally like the outdated look of 256color Sierra games, as well as many people wanting to be able to play old style games again. In fact, there seems to be a big demand for that look, and you can observe this by looking at all the fanmade adventure game projects out on the internet. The method we used to make backgrounds is the method we found that gave us the look that most closely resembles the old games. Although you think it was easy to make those backgrounds, it was anything but. It took months of three people working everyday in Photoshop to create the whole world for KQ, and if you haven't created such a world, then you have no credibility to be talking about how it is to make them. Although you seem to think we just took old Sierra graphics and rearranged them on a new screen, I can assure you, we did not. In fact, it's interesting that you assumed we did that, and I wonder if perhaps you could be reacting defensively towards our project from something that happened to you in your past involving such types of backgrounds. We did use textures from old sierra games. For instance, grass textures, bark textures, tree leave textures. I consider the method we used to make our backgrounds the equivalent of making 3D art (which isn't my favorite, but, the method works to make a pleasant looking picture). For example, if we wanted to make leaves, we would use the lasso tool to encompass the area needed to be filled, and we would use various leave textures to fill this area in. Then, we would use the paint tools, blur tools, dodge and burn tools (to make highlights and shadows), etc, to further enhance the look of the screen. I'm quite proud of the results to tell you the truth. When I play the game, I feel as if I've truly returned to KQ world, but on a totally new map! This technique is the only way I can think of making the backgrounds that would give the player the real feeling of playing a King's Quest game. And, additionally, there is no way that I was going to paint an entirely new picture on a canvas, by hand, of a world that was designed by somebody else, when I was only planning on making the game for myself, and I was not going to make any money. I would lose money if I did that. I'm sure anybody would understand the logic behind that.

And, I agree with you. AGS is a GREAT tool to make games. In fact, adventure games are very simple to make no matter what tool you use, although it take a LOT of time and effort to complete one. Not many are finished these days, due to the fact that making a game is such an immense task with a todo list that seems neverending. So, I recommend you take a try at making your own game if you are unsatisfied with ours. Or, better yet, just ignore our games, and don't make your own game, and continue playing your old games.

And don't worry, you really don't need to play our remake. We're not asking you to. We already have hundreds of people signed up...we'll probably need to get a new server anyhow to be able to allow for all the traffic we will be receiving. If you're not trying to discourage us, then I don't understand the logic behind posting harsh and untrue comments on our forum. But, don't worry. We're a group of highly motivated individuals that are excited to be able to bring adventure games back to people that have waited so long to get a taste of them again. So, no amount of unthoughtful comments can bring us down.
So, play our finished game if you'd like, and remember, our job is not trying to impress you. It's to finish a high quality adventure game to keep the spirit of the old Sierra games alive and well. And please stop assuming from now on. If you don't know how we're doing something, just ask...we won't bite! :)
Anonymous Game Developer #1

P.S. I've played the Space Quest sequal, and it was AWESOME. Just goes to show how two different people can have majorly varying opinions.

Edited by: Milan Easton at: 5/18/01 11:07:33 am

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Re: hmmm...

#7 Post by Milan Easton » Fri May 18, 2001 4:09 pm

Hey Spencer! Thank you very much for your kind words. Such enthusiasm from fans makes our months of laborous work and neverending tasks seem all the more worthwhile. :)

Hope to see you around. :)

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Re: hmmm...

#8 Post by Anonymous Game Creator 2 » Fri May 18, 2001 4:29 pm

...but have you considered that we are giving people a chance to play KQ who would normally not ever have know about it before? Let's face it, people today are impressed with graphics and the latest technology in games... not the gameplay itself. Most modern gamers wouldn't dare load up an old AGI sierra title, let alone sit there, plugging words into it. As a result most modern gamers would never get the chance to play the original KQ at all.

Our remake is a little more user friendly, and will appeal more to modern gamers, giving them to the chance to experience Daventry as well! But other than the graphics and lack of text parser, our game is basically identical to the original SCI version, all puzzles, music, everything... We've changed NONE of the original gameplay elements, so I fail to see how can our version could be any worse than the SCI version. Besides, the game style being 10 years old is exactly the point we're trying to make. People liked sierra a lot better in those days! People LOVED their VGA adventure games, and people miss them now. The mid 90's were a good gaming era. And this is the reason why many people will not touch a sierra product these days, because they don't make classic adventure games anymore.

As for the credibility thing.. well, it could also be argued that using the original sierra backgrounds and layout for our screens is just keeping things as authentic-looking as possible. If our game LOOKS like a Sierra game and it FEELS like a Sierra game, then logically.. why can't it be just as good as a sierra game? After all, in some cases, the only difference between amatuers and professionals is that professionals are get payed for their work. But if the passion to create good games exists within a person, then what difference does it make if that person is being payed or not?

Actually, I remember when The SCI version of KQ1 was released, a similar issue came up and people accused sierra of "butchering a classic game". Personally, I think it was a huge overreation and that most people read too deeply into trivial things. But not many people bought the remake of KQ1. And as a result, Sierra didn't look favourably upon future remakes of KQ games.

But as with anything, the choice is yours. If you like the idea..play it... if you don't... don't play it. it's really that simple. Although, you do have a point that the first game you ever play in a series forms the basis of your opinions for the rest of that series. We realise that.. that's why we're trying our best to do justice to KQ1. We will also mention this in the disclaimer and recommned people play the original Sierra version of KQ1 in addition to our version.

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Re: whats the point for KQ1 VGA?

#9 Post by Mandaren » Sat May 19, 2001 3:38 am

Sopfen:

As any educated individual must do when presenting a side of an issue is to clearly see it from other different sides. First you say it can destroy the series if a poor remake is made preventing any professional ones from being made, then you say others that find the series through this project may get the wrong impressions of the entire Kings Quest series if this is a poorly made remake. Yet, as I mentioned you have looked at it from one side, that this game will endanger the Kings Quest series, yet have you thought at all that indeed this may help keep the spirit alive of the series. As any educated individual would do is learn more about what they see first instead of making assumptions and presuming to know what this remake will do. You must look at both sides of the issue, one you mention is that you think it may hurt the Kings Quest series, but I seriously think that it may help the series, another side of the issue. The old Sierra is gone, so is Roberta Williams and traditional adventure games from being made at Sierra. Did you know this? How can you expect that a professional version will not be made if this fan project is made, when as I have said, the old Sierra is gone, the chances for this to happen are almost non existant. How can you say that these three dedicated people are just ripping graphics from other games and doing nothing else. I have played the entire series and there art is very original and not copied. Yes, they do use a few original graphics from the series as they have mentioned like the Graham character art, but a majority of it has been their own original work.

Ultimately, the decision is always upon the player who decides whether to try or not to try this remake. You just cant say that this remake should not be done, and take away the choice away from others who might want to give this remake a try. You are assuming that so many fans that would try this remake are mindless zombies that do not know that this is a fan project and thus be lured thinking that this is the original Kings Quest. I think differently, I think that people are smart enough to decide whether they want to give this remake a chance or not to. No one is being forced or committed to try these games, and thus your statements are groundless and baseless. They are keeping the spirit alive of games that seem to be fading away and doing a very fine job in keeping the classic feel of the games intact. They are doing this free, and not making any profits from this project but the applause from the fans. Instead of trying to understand what they are doing you have come up with some very unreasonable preconcieved notions of what their remake will do. You argue against the remake and thus argue against the very spirit and soul that this remake is trying to keep alive, and that is not what a true fan of the series would do. It may be true that not all fan projects turn out well, but that does not mean it will happen here as well. I believe from everything I have seen at this site, through carefully looking at it, that the three dedicated individuals are taking their time, and doing the best they can to ensure they deliver a quality remake that remains faithful to the original Kings Quest. Please next time try to consider and reason out what you will write and post. I dont mean to sound harsh in my post, but I see these people doing so much hard work on their own time, and it just seems so unfair that you would take a quick glance, obviously without thinking things through and responding with such harsh and rash comments that have no merit.

Have a nice day!

Edited by: Mandaren at: 5/18/01 11:02:06 pm

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Re: hmmm...

#10 Post by TheHoj » Sat May 19, 2001 4:11 am

I can't wait for you guys to finish.

I have all of the Kings Quest games, and enjoy them thoroughly. The Kings quest series is probably my favorite game series of all time.

I have played through KQ1, KQ2, almost KQ3 & KQ4, KQ5, KQ6, I didn't really like KQ7, and almost finished KQ8.

But my favorite one would have to be KQ6.

Which is your favorite game in the series?

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Re: whats the point for KQ1 VGA?

#11 Post by Mandaren » Sat May 19, 2001 4:23 am

I definitely liked the first Kings Quest game very much, going after all those treasures was fun to do. Second as you mention as well has got to be Kings Quest 6 with the wonderful voice overs and beautiful rendered opening movie and great gameplay. <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub57.ezboard.com/umandaren.show ... andaren</A> at: 5/19/01 4:21:01 am<br></i>

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Re: whats the point for KQ1 VGA?

#12 Post by Anonymous Game Creator 2 » Sat May 19, 2001 12:29 pm

Thanks for teh support Mandaren! Couldn't have said it better myself<!--EZCODE EMOTICON START :) --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/im ... /smile.gif ALT=":)"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> <br><br>Hmmmm, I think my favourite KQ would be KQ4 followed closely by KQ3. <p></p><i></i>

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Re: whats the point for KQ1 VGA?

#13 Post by Mandaren » Sat May 19, 2001 9:22 pm

Anonymous Game Creator #2:<br><br>Kings Quest 3 and Kings Quest 4 were also some great games in the series. Trying out all the different spells in King Quest 3 and helping Rosella in 4 were very memorable. I think that I will decide to replay some of these adventures, and maybe the favorites I had before will change. Its so nice to have a place to discuss the past Kings Quest games. <p></p><i></i>

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Re: whats the point for KQ1 VGA?

#14 Post by Princess Cassima » Mon May 28, 2001 9:31 am

KQ6. No Question. Just an incredible game all around!

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the best kq games

#15 Post by Frogman » Tue Aug 14, 2001 5:45 am

yeah 3, 4, and 6 are definitely the best, and 7 isn't too bad... I don't like KQ5 very much though, it needs a text option, everyone talks so slow, the voice quality bites, and it takes to long to load. I have the text-version on the old Amiga but it takes about 2 minutes to load a new screen. <p></p><i></i>

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Yep.

#16 Post by adeyke » Tue Aug 14, 2001 6:06 am

The voices in KQ5 were horrible. It's also quite annoying that neither KQ5 nor KQ6 nor LB2 has the option of both speech and text. Is there any reason for this? QfG4 had this option, but for those other games, you had to choose which of the two you want (or not even have the option of text) <!--EZCODE EMOTICON START :/ --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/im ... ohwell.gif ALT=":/"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> .<br><br>I like KQ4 most. Rosella rules. KQ6 is a very close second. Then comes KQ3, which is amazingly complex for an AGI game. Then comes KQ1, then KQ2 (which really isn't that great). KQ7 comes last; it just doesn't fit with the others. <p></p><i></i>

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Re: Yep.

#17 Post by Anonymous Game Creator 2 » Tue Aug 14, 2001 6:28 am

I did not like KQ7, which is a shame because KQ4 was great! It's strange how the games in the KQ series are a mixture of different, very inconsistant game styles. I realize that sierra was testing out their new improving technology for each KQ installment, but having nearly every game in a totaly different style than it's predecessor, really made is hard to re-identify with the characters..Like, Rosella being more serious and normal in KQ4, as compared to being like a Disney character in KQ7.. she just wasn't like the same person. <p></p><i></i>

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The many faces of KQ

#18 Post by Cadbury Wookie » Tue Aug 14, 2001 3:20 pm

The one advantage to all the KQ games being of different styles (from Disney to slash-em-up) is the relative freedom one would have is in re-creating the games - or even writing new chapters.<br>You could go ultra sugary, or have a blood-bath, or anything in between... the precedent has been set for all.<br>Imagine the fun you could have with a game like KQ2 (which, in its original context had NO style!). A writer could have a field day with that "gem". :)<br><br>"I've found that death does tend to diminish one's taste for power." <p></p><i></i>

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adeyke:

#19 Post by sweetP » Tue Aug 14, 2001 6:35 pm

KQ6 did have a text option, actually. <p></p><i></i>

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Yes...

#20 Post by adeyke » Tue Aug 14, 2001 7:24 pm

But did it have a speech <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><i> and</i><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> text option? AFAIK, there's just a button to switch between either one or the other. <p></p><i></i>

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i've been thinking the same thing

#21 Post by Frogman » Tue Aug 14, 2001 10:37 pm

it would be really nice if KQ5 & 6 had the voice and text option like QG4. Also, why do KQ5, 6, 7, and QG4 not automatically go into the full screen mode? You have to set the resolution to 640x480 just to play the game in full screen mode, and you couldn't play QG4 in full screen mode because it prevented you from leaving the screen at the bottom! Also, one thing I've never liked about the KQ series is that you can get stuck forever without even knowing it. I spent about an hour trying to get out of the KQ5 forest until i realized that i needed honey to catch the leprechaun, and it's annoying how in KQ6 if you don't have the hole-in-the-wall when in the catacomb, the minotaur will kill you.<br><br>One last thing, since Josh Mandel is voicing the KQ1remake, i should say that the QUALITY of the voices on KQ5 were terrible, not the actual sound of the voices <!--EZCODE EMOTICON START :) --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/im ... /smile.gif ALT=":)"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> <!--EZCODE EMOTICON START :) --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/im ... /smile.gif ALT=":)"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> hehe <p></p><i></i>

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oh..

#22 Post by sweetP » Wed Aug 15, 2001 2:01 am

oh i see what you're talking about, i'm stupid... <p></p><i></i>

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Re: oh..

#23 Post by TroubleVIII » Fri Aug 17, 2001 9:08 am

Hi all just reading all the comments <!--EZCODE EMOTICON START :eek --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/im ... ns/eek.gif ALT=":eek"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> I'm new to this board but played both kq and qfg series, and won't pick a fav, I will try the game when it comes out and really wish that Sierra hadn't of decided to not have rpg games anymore, there really are a lot of us out here* sure you'd all agree <!--EZCODE EMOTICON START :) --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/im ... /smile.gif ALT=":)"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> <p><I>Being Trouble does not always lead to trouble<BR><I>Original nametag by "The Great Kimmie"<BR><I> Animation by "The Great Sir Mighty Moto VIII"<BR><a href="http://pub6.ezboard.com/bthegathering5812"><b>Welcome to the Home of Asylumites!</b></a> <BR><a href="http://pub8.ezboard.com/bfellowadventurer"><b>Come visit our Oasis!</b></a> <BR><a href="http://pub12.ezboard.com/basylumitesasylum"> Come visit our innocent Fairy!</a> </p><i></i>

LordKev
Peasant Status
Posts: 1
Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2001 8:21 pm

I think KQ1 Remake is outstanding!

#24 Post by LordKev » Fri Aug 24, 2001 8:21 pm

Congratulations to the team! KQ1 is an excellent effort... the graphics are on par with the last of the good Sierra games..<br><br>Here's hoping for more greatness in the future!<br><br>- Kevin<br>(Can't wait for the KQ1 voice pack)<br> <p></p><i></i>

Fender178
Knight Status
Posts: 328
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2001 10:10 pm

Re: I think KQ1 Remake is outstanding!

#25 Post by Fender178 » Tue Aug 28, 2001 6:05 am

good work to the kq1vga team i just beaten the game today. and when is the the version with voices suppose to be out?<br>ps not with full points just 146 of 158. <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub57.ezboard.com/ufender178.sho ... nder178</A> at: 8/28/01 1:06:54 am<br></i>

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