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Becoming paladin
http://www.agdinteractive.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=12473
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Author:  Erpy [ Wed Aug 27, 2008 9:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Becoming paladin

Yes, it's completely impossible to do any law-breaking without getting disqualified. You can still become a paladin as a thief and get 500 points, though. It just isn't much fun. :)

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Author:  Beverheim [ Wed Aug 27, 2008 9:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Becoming paladin

Erpy wrote:
Yes, it's completely impossible to do any law-breaking without getting disqualified. You can still become a paladin as a thief and get 500 points, though. It just isn't much fun. :)

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Yep, playing a thief character that chooses to abstain from thieving activity seems quite dull. For thieves, entering paladin class becomes like entering Cleptomaniacs Anonymous. Therapy for reformed thiefs :p

Author:  Brainiac [ Wed Aug 27, 2008 3:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Becoming paladin

Erpy wrote:
Yes, it's completely impossible to do any law-breaking without getting disqualified. You can still become a paladin as a thief and get 500 points, though. It just isn't much fun. :)

You can get more than 500. You just can't get the "Becoming Paladin" maximum of 550. Presuming there are no changes to the point system (other than distrubing Merv is only -5 Paladin Points), a thief can get 502 points, I think. You lose 20 points by not breaking into the house (first thief mission), 6 points for not breaking into Issur's shop, 3 points for never fencing anything through Dinarzad, 11 points for not breaking into Khaveen's in Raseir, and finally another 8 points for neither showing Ferrari the thief sign or giving him the blackbird.

Actually, a question occured to me. Thieves and Wizards get an extra 12 Paladin Points inherently since they don't get a chance to return Soulforge (5) or show mercy during the EOF Initiation (7). What about the 7 Paladin points for dealing with Khaveen peacefully? Do Thieves get those upon either sneaking past Khaveen or skipping him entirely with the Harem route?

Author:  Erpy [ Wed Aug 27, 2008 4:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Becoming paladin

No, I don't think thieves get those Khaveen points at all.

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Author:  Brainiac [ Wed Aug 27, 2008 4:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Becoming paladin

Erpy wrote:
No, I don't think thieves get those Khaveen points at all.

Really? Hmmm...then how do they get 500 or more as a Paladin? By my math, they'd be stuck at 495.

Although I recall a YouTube vid that had a Thief defeat Ad Avis with 443 points, then become a Paladin and gain 63 points instead of 50...very strange.

Author:  Schloss Ritter [ Wed Aug 27, 2008 4:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Becoming paladin

Err, Paladin Points (up to 50) are not Puzzle Points (up to 500).

Author:  Erpy [ Wed Aug 27, 2008 4:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Becoming paladin

No, but if you become a paladin, they're added as puzzle points.

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Author:  Quest For Glory Fan [ Wed Aug 27, 2008 5:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Becoming paladin

Thieves cannot deal with Khaveen peacefully if they take the harem route. So do they lose those paladin points?

Author:  pikaporeon [ Wed Aug 27, 2008 10:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Becoming paladin

Does returning the reward to Rakeesh get you any PaliPoints?

Author:  HoustonDragon [ Wed Aug 27, 2008 10:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Becoming paladin

pikaporeon wrote:
Does returning the reward to Rakeesh get you any PaliPoints?


Doesn't seem to, but it does give you a nice Honor boost

Author:  keronian [ Sat Sep 20, 2008 10:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Becoming paladin

Dangit, I ALMOST got a perfect score... But I missed finding Omar's stupid wallet on the ground, so I got 543/550. Didn't even know the Pally points were added to score, thought just "becoming a paladin" was 50... Ignorance bit me in the keister. Oh, well. Still, amazing job, guys, felt JUST like playing the old QFG2... but with a MUCH improved battle system. (also a much HARDER battle system, YEESH, Khaveen was tough)

Author:  DrJones [ Sat Sep 20, 2008 10:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Becoming paladin

Gosh, I read Khaveen points and thought about some secret skill your character could raise somehow. :lol

Author:  Brainiac [ Sun Sep 21, 2008 12:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Becoming paladin

keronian wrote:
Didn't even know the Pally points were added to score, thought just "becoming a paladin" was 50...

You may have been confused with QfG3's system. In that game, it is just a +50 for becoming a Paladin (though there's still no way to get 550 total points due to the point system's general idiocy).

Author:  bugmenot [ Sun Sep 21, 2008 12:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Becoming paladin

Erpy wrote:
Yes, it's completely impossible to do any law-breaking without getting disqualified. You can still become a paladin as a thief and get 500 points, though. It just isn't much fun. :)

That's not true. You can (and due to a bug, sometimes must) steal the bellows. Not to mention that even without stealing, you still pretty much break any possible rule in Rasier.

Author:  Erpy [ Sun Sep 21, 2008 9:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Becoming paladin

True, but none of those actions are disqualifiers.

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Author:  Goilveig [ Mon Sep 22, 2008 4:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Becoming paladin

Beverheim wrote:
So, it is absolutely impossible to do any of the thieving missions if you want to become a paladin?


Yup. No thieving for you.

I just do the thieving on my thief, and only make my fighter into a paladin.

Author:  Thepal [ Sun Sep 28, 2008 11:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Becoming paladin

Quest For Glory Fan wrote:
Thieves cannot deal with Khaveen peacefully if they take the harem route. So do they lose those paladin points?


The way it worked in the original is that the thief's points still go up to 500 if he becomes a paladin, and the paladin points make up for what the thief couldn't do (stealing and such). The thief could still get 457 of his normal points, so only needs 43 to get the rest of the way (so Khaveen wasn't necessary).

Not sure if that is how it works in the remake though.

Author:  Brainiac [ Mon Sep 29, 2008 12:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Becoming paladin

Thepal wrote:
The way it worked in the original is that the thief's points still go up to 500 if he becomes a paladin, and the paladin points make up for what the thief couldn't do (stealing and such). The thief could still get 457 of his normal points, so only needs 43 to get the rest of the way (so Khaveen wasn't necessary).

Not sure if that is how it works in the remake though.

Erpy's said they were aiming for the 447 + 43 route for their version, but they left the +7 for using Calm on Khaveen in for Thieves taking the regular end path (I think they removed that in v1.1). As to the original, I believe they had some point glitches in there as well. ADVRipper4 has a Thief-Paladin ending on YouTube that ends with 506 points. His character definitely only get 43 Paladin Points, so there must be an extra 6 points added to the regular score somewhere.

Author:  Paviel [ Mon Sep 29, 2008 3:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Becoming paladin

Erpy wrote:
Yes, it's completely impossible to do any law-breaking without getting disqualified.


I object to this statement on the grounds that stealing the bellows is law-breaking, but it doesn't disqualify you from becoming a paladin.

Author:  NeoSnax90 [ Mon Sep 29, 2008 5:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Becoming paladin

But that's for a good cause! It's not like we're stealing for the sake of stealing.

Author:  bugmenot [ Mon Sep 29, 2008 9:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Becoming paladin

What good cause? You can steal them way before even knowing there's such a thing as elementals. You can also steal them without even trying to ask politely first.

Author:  Erpy [ Mon Sep 29, 2008 9:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Becoming paladin

Yeah, that's what we aimed for. I never did try to beat it that way. Just prior to release, the first time you backstabbed also lost you 2 paladin points, but I ended up removing that one since it would basically be the final nail in the coffin of neutering the thief's appeal in a pally-game. (then again, why anybody would want their thief to be a paladin is beyond me to begin with)

A difference in the remake is some points for Issur's burglary scene. In the original, breaking into Issur's shop did not disqualify you and thus was necessary to beat the thief-pally game with perfect score. In the remake, this isn't the case since:

1) You can't enter the weapon shop until Dinarzad points you there and she won't point you there until you've actually fenced some stuff from the metalworker's house. So getting to the weapon shop burglary without a disqualification isn't possible.

2) I personally thought it was stupid that the original game insinuated it was okay to steal a truckload of money from a guy whose only crime was a bad attitude, but it was unpaladin-like (and thus disqualifying) to steal a worthless imitation statue from a person who exiled an entire race and made the lives of those remaining in Raseir living hell. To counter this, a thief class who made the sign to Ferrari and has not received a disqualification up to this point (which is also the last point in the game where a non-fighter can still screw up) gets those missing weapon shop points for refusing to do the blackbird quest for Ferrari.

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Author:  NeoSnax90 [ Mon Sep 29, 2008 12:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Becoming paladin

bugmenot wrote:
What good cause? You can steal them way before even knowing there's such a thing as elementals. You can also steal them without even trying to ask politely first.


:o Oh... uh... um...

Well, maybe Rakeesh just figured that it worked out to an honorable outcome and decided to give you Paladinhood anyway.

Author:  bugmenot [ Mon Sep 29, 2008 1:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Becoming paladin

I refuse to accept that a paladin is measured by outcomes and not by measures. The end justifies the means is the difference between a fighter (whose final goal is to save the day too) and a paladin (who takes no shortcuts).

Author:  Curmudgeon [ Mon Oct 06, 2008 8:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Becoming paladin

Erpy wrote:
Chastity has less to do with it than disrespecting a consent from her side. Zayishah is not interested in naughty stuff. She gets annoyed when you try to go for a kiss and if you try it too often, she even kicks you out. I would imagine that a striptease would be even less voluntary. It does decrease honor, btw. But I suppose the positive honor for helping her canceled things out.


Except that peeping at her isn't voluntary, either. It happens automatically if you have the X-ray glasses on, something that can easily be done without having any foreknowledge about an undressing woman at a later point in the game and by the time Zayishah is happened upon, the fact that the character is wearing the glasses can easily be forgotten. The veils in her room are barely noticeable with the glasses on and it's all too easy enough to just not note the layout of the room while talking with her and trading clothes.

More to the point, everything that disqualifies a paladin in the game is an active choice, where the player is fully cogent of what's being done. The player makes a choice for the character to steal, murder without mercy, and otherwise act less than honorable.

Not to mention that looking at Zayishah with the glasses in the original game was not a disqualifying action.

If you're going to make a change like that, then it should also include a clear dialogue window asking if the character wants to peep or not. That or it should require actively using the eye icon to look at her while she's undressing. It should not by any means be something that a player can stumble upon unknowingly and get screwed over for.

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