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 Post subject: Theif Combat
PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 5:54 pm 
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Ok, I'm on my second playthrough as a Thief. My first playthrough was a Fighter run to become a Paladin.

My question is, do thieves get any improved combat skills (other than dagger throw and backflip) past lunge? My paladin had like FOUR swings when I finished the games. My weapon use is at 171 on day 9 (yeah, I spend a lot of time in the guild hall) .... and all I have is two swings.

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 Post subject: Re: Theif Combat
PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 6:05 pm 
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No. You won't get more techniques than you have now. The strong point of the fighter is sword technique. The strong point of the mage is strong spells. The strong point of the thief is stealth.

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 Post subject: Re: Theif Combat
PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 6:20 pm 
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Thanks for the clarification. I just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing out on something cool (not that throwing daggers at someone isn't the epitome of 'cool').


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 Post subject: Re: Theif Combat
PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 6:45 pm 
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Just remember, full-frontal combat is not the thief's preferred tactic when it comes to confrontation. He typically prefers to avoid monsters, and as such there are 'other ways' to defeat your enemies as a skilled thief.


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 Post subject: Re: Theif Combat
PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 8:27 pm 
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Once my stats got a lot better and I got the hang of the combat, I was able to defeat uhura and defeat a scorpion as a thief.


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 Post subject: Re: Theif Combat
PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 8:54 pm 
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unfortunately due to the original design the thief is not very good at combat. you can chuck many daggers (press q) and pick them up after (search the bodies and ground) but in terms of opponents the majority are too hard. if you train up at uhura's eventually do a couple jackalmen (actually 4 is usually doable once you've trained a bit, 5 can be deadly). you also lose all the stamina you need for dodge moves very easily at low training levels, so in the beginning combat can seem impossible, but it isn't after a bit of training. also i hugely recommend turning on the auto combat system and focusing it purely on dodging, while you do the attacks yourself. but still, the thief has a low ceiling for pain and stamina and isn't really designed to go out and hunt. what sucks is the game doesn't actually give him anything else to do. just a couple thief jobs so basically you can either pass the game by fast or train up your skills to max but little in the way of fun. it's a better game for magic users and fighters I think, although at least interesting to try the thief once.


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 Post subject: Re: Theif Combat
PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 8:58 pm 
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Heh, I need to level up in a serious way......my poor thief is getting his butt handed to him in every fight. :lol :(

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 Post subject: Re: Theif Combat
PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 9:40 pm 
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Quote:
unfortunately due to the original design the thief is not very good at combat. you can chuck many daggers (press q) and pick them up after (search the bodies and ground) but in terms of opponents the majority are too hard. if you train up at uhura's eventually do a couple jackalmen (actually 4 is usually doable once you've trained a bit, 5 can be deadly). you also lose all the stamina you need for dodge moves very easily at low training levels, so in the beginning combat can seem impossible, but it isn't after a bit of training. also i hugely recommend turning on the auto combat system and focusing it purely on dodging, while you do the attacks yourself. but still, the thief has a low ceiling for pain and stamina and isn't really designed to go out and hunt. what sucks is the game doesn't actually give him anything else to do. just a couple thief jobs so basically you can either pass the game by fast or train up your skills to max but little in the way of fun. it's a better game for magic users and fighters I think, although at least interesting to try the thief once.


Heh, in what way could we make the game more fun for thieves if thief jobs don't count?

The reason thieves SEEM to get the short end of the stick is because their specialty isn't brawn or big fireballs. It's stealth. Use your stealth, not your brawn. Trust me, thieves aren't nearly as weak as you're suggesting they are. You're merely not using the right approach. If you're a thief, think like a thief...not like a fighter without a sword.

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 Post subject: Re: Theif Combat
PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 9:47 pm 
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Quote:
Use your stealth, not your brawn. Trust me, thieves aren't nearly as weak as you're suggesting they are. You're merely not using the right approach. If you're a thief, think like a thief...not like a fighter without a sword.


Hmm...sounds like the old dagger in the back after sneaking past a monster?


Last edited by ulmont on Wed Aug 27, 2008 10:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Theif Combat
PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 9:51 pm 
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Yup.

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 Post subject: Re: Theif Combat
PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 10:15 pm 
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Erpy wrote:
Yup.

But they run away so fast...I can never hit anything with a dagger. It's very sad.


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 Post subject: Re: Theif Combat
PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 10:22 pm 
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When I want to do that, I sneak around until I find a monster, then quickly turn the game speed down to minimum and throw my dagger. It is a bit of a hassle.


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 Post subject: Re: Theif Combat
PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 10:45 pm 
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Wow, when you hit them like that it really takes them down a notch. Nice!


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 Post subject: Re: Theif Combat
PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 10:49 pm 
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Erpy wrote:
It's stealth. Use your stealth, not your brawn. Trust me, thieves aren't nearly as weak as you're suggesting they are. You're merely not using the right approach. If you're a thief, think like a thief...not like a fighter without a sword.

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Ah, I forgot to ever try sneaking by monsters. :( So much complexity and no hints in these old games and yet I hate how dumbed down new games are lol


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 Post subject: Re: Theif Combat
PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 10:50 pm 
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Sneaking up on monsters also gets you a nice Stealth boost -- a stat that otherwise takes a lot of tedious grinding to increase.


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 Post subject: Re: Theif Combat
PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 11:17 pm 
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Seeing that the player automatically walks from left to right (or vice versa), I just make him walk one way, change my cursor to a dagger and let it hover near the edge of the screen. Gets 'em every time.

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 Post subject: Re: Theif Combat
PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 11:47 pm 
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Does it actually kill them? I just tried it with 180 stealth and 150ish throwing. I snuck around for a long time and it was very slow to actually get an encounter, because either it's impossible going north/south due to the monster getting away while you walk/"load", or you can get maybe one dagger in them which in the case of a group of jackalmen did maybe 1/10th damage to one of them before a normal fight.


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 Post subject: Re: Theif Combat
PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 12:03 am 
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First of all, it's nearly impossible to get a good shot if you walk in from the north/south, but walking in from the east/west definitely gives you an opportunity. Damage is based on both throwing skill and strength, with throwing the more significant stat. If you did it right, you'll get a message saying that your dagger hits its target with deadly accuracy. (only the thief class gets the damage bonus) If you messed up, the monster will just notice you and attack. It takes a bit of practice...you must click the dagger on the monster itself before it exits the screen.

And yes, eventually the damage gets high enough to be fatal to the weaker monsters, even on hard. I'd estimate that on hard mode with strength and throwing on 150, you'll have just enough damage to drop a brigand or jackalman in one shot.

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 Post subject: Re: Theif Combat
PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 12:08 am 
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Wow, this game is making me play in ways I never played before. I don't think I have EVER snuck around in the desert, so I didn't even know you could find them before they found you. Interesting!! I thought I had seen it all with TBF!

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 Post subject: Re: Theif Combat
PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 1:06 am 
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Hmmm damn I didn't get the deadly accuracy message any time earlier. Something to try again.


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 Post subject: Re: Theif Combat
PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 1:34 am 
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I just played and beat the game as a thief. Combat really isn't necessary. The only time I fought was to pass the time or to get a scorpion's tail for Harik. Granted, I was nowhere close to killing a ghoul for it's claws, but it's not like I needed the money anyway. As a thief, I either sneaked through the desert (which is slow but avoids combat) or ran through the desert and retreated from combat whenever caught. I didn't even bother buying daggers. So I think choosing the thief is perfect for someone, like myself, who cares more for the adventure component of the game than the action. Now, I'm not saying you guys didn't do an awesome job remaking the combat system (it's far better than the original), it's just that I don't have the coordination/patience to fight.
So it worked out very well for me.
By the way. I don't think I was ever able to receive the actual third assignment from the moneychanger. I paid her and then she gave me the same instructions as the very first assignment. At least I think it was the first...


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 Post subject: Re: Theif Combat
PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 1:59 am 
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Spanky wrote:
By the way. I don't think I was ever able to receive the actual third assignment from the moneychanger. I paid her and then she gave me the same instructions as the very first assignment. At least I think it was the first...


Are you sure? The "mission" is similar, but it's on a different street.


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 Post subject: Re: Theif Combat
PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 2:37 am 
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cool it works I took a scorpion down to practically no life with one throw. I noticed what seems to be a bug though, or maybe just not possible to keep moving when you want to throw, but sneaking keyboard controls stop working when you have the dagger as the icon.


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 Post subject: Re: Theif Combat
PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 2:44 am 
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You need to have the movement cursor active in order to use the arrow keys.


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 Post subject: Re: Theif Combat
PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 5:17 am 
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Also, long ago I vaguely recall someone (Erpy I think) commenting on the Silver Dagger you get from the metalworker's house as being a much better weapon than a regular dagger (broadsword level damage, I think?), so that could be an inadvertant way for a thief (or a magic user with the appropriate thief skills) to boost their fighting ability as well.


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