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 Post subject: New Mage minigames
PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 7:10 am 
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OK, finished my thief and working on my mage now :)

Have to say, these are GREAT minigames :) Much, much more fun than grinding spells the old fashioned way.

I did find a bug in Aziza's game though:

Image

I was Earth, I shifted to fire. I expected the ground beneath me to burn (at least temporarily; the water I suppose would douse it and I'd have suicided in the air) but instead, it leaves me as a fire elemental on earth. I can't change to water elemental (as I'm standing on earth) and I can't move forward (as it's water).

I've seen Aziza get stuck in an identical way, fire elemental on an earth zone with water on the other sides. The only way for the player to get out is with the aid of the other player -- i.e. if Aziza converts the air behind me to earth, I can set it ablaze and set my own zone ablaze as well in the process.


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 Post subject: Re: New Mage minigames
PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 2:00 pm 
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It's not exactly a bug, but rather the result of a miscalculation in your playing style. The beach trap, as I used to call it, is kinda like getting your golf ball in a sand trap. It happens because earth zones only change if they're exposed to more fire than to water. (likewise, flame zones only change if they're exposed to more water than air) It is definitely possible to get out of it...simply cast open on the pillar on the eastern corner of the field. With luck, it'll appear right in front of you, cutting off the earth zone from the water zone and causing your fire elemental to set the earth zone ablaze. You can then change to the water elemental and proceed. If the pillar appears on the southern corner, try again next turn.

I've been trying to make Aziza avoid that situation, btw, but scripting Aziza's mini-game behavior was a very difficult and complex job so I may have overlooked something.

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 Post subject: Re: New Mage minigames
PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 2:15 pm 
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Also, if Aziza casts Open on the pillar in her elemental's path (which she probably will), it might end up in front of you, with the same results.

Aziza does get "stuck" and make blatantly dumb decisions at times, but

1) I pretend she's going easy on me
2) She's an AI, and AIs are pretty much always stupid in complex situations. (Once you've gotten adept at his game, you realize how boneheaded many of Keapon's moves are, but that's kind of a good thing.)


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 Post subject: Re: New Mage minigames
PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 2:30 pm 
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Quote:
(Once you've gotten adept at his game, you realize how boneheaded many of Keapon's moves are, but that's kind of a good thing.)


Hey, I recall various beta testers begging me to tone him down.

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 Post subject: Re: New Mage minigames
PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 2:47 pm 
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Prio wrote:
Also, if Aziza casts Open on the pillar in her elemental's path (which she probably will), it might end up in front of you, with the same results.

Aziza does get "stuck" and make blatantly dumb decisions at times, but

1) I pretend she's going easy on me
2) She's an AI, and AIs are pretty much always stupid in complex situations. (Once you've gotten adept at his game, you realize how boneheaded many of Keapon's moves are, but that's kind of a good thing.)


Plus if she were such an all powerful magic user - why doesn't she get rid of the the elementals, save Julanar, the beast, and defeat Ad Avis? She has to have SOME limits! hehehe :lol

I got to say - I've found this particular game really enjoyable and challenging (which is to say sometimes frustrating too). Good work!


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 Post subject: Re: New Mage minigames
PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 3:23 pm 
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CGG wrote:
Prio wrote:
Also, if Aziza casts Open on the pillar in her elemental's path (which she probably will), it might end up in front of you, with the same results.

Aziza does get "stuck" and make blatantly dumb decisions at times, but

1) I pretend she's going easy on me
2) She's an AI, and AIs are pretty much always stupid in complex situations. (Once you've gotten adept at his game, you realize how boneheaded many of Keapon's moves are, but that's kind of a good thing.)


Plus if she were such an all powerful magic user - why doesn't she get rid of the the elementals, save Julanar, the beast, and defeat Ad Avis? She has to have SOME limits! hehehe :lol

I got to say - I've found this particular game really enjoyable and challenging (which is to say sometimes frustrating too). Good work!


Well yeah, her specialty is in Divinations, and she's likely not too skilled in combat and getting-things-done. On a related note, if Erasmus is as powerful as he lets on, why doesn't he take care of stuff instead of pawning off all the work on the hero do every time?

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 Post subject: Re: New Mage minigames
PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 3:33 pm 
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Well it's a nice little way to boost your skills beside going in an alley and casting spells for half an hour. I still don't totally get Aziza's game how you get send her back to the beginning again? Everything else I think I understand but is there any to change the water floor into another element besides being a fire elemental and walking on the water and turning it to air? (at least I think that's how it work...)Thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: New Mage minigames
PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 3:41 pm 
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Erpy wrote:
Quote:
(Once you've gotten adept at his game, you realize how boneheaded many of Keapon's moves are, but that's kind of a good thing.)


Hey, I recall various beta testers begging me to tone him down.

Image


*thinks back to the many times that Keapon has performed flawless 50 bounce moves to steal one of his clouds and imagines him being even more difficult* :|


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 Post subject: Re: New Mage minigames
PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 4:10 pm 
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AtypicalChuck wrote:
*thinks back to the many times that Keapon has performed flawless 50 bounce moves to steal one of his clouds and imagines him being even more difficult* :|


Keapon just has always-on Detect Magic and raw processing power on his side. He knows which clouds can be hit -- as do you, after casting Detect Magic. Once any player knows they CAN hit a cloud, all they have to do is trace the possible bounce routes backwards (three different possibilities at the most) until they find the one(s) that works. This task is potentially tedious (especially in the case of long routes with many bounces) but, once you understand how to trace a route, it requires no skill, planning, or cleverness at all -- just very simple brute-force geometry combined with a little mental (or actual) trial-and-error.

I actually don't know if Keapon actually has the forethought to try and trigger/fetch the prisms in a way that makes your clouds more vulnerable, or whether he just does something random each round until he sees that one of your clouds can be hit, but I do know that I've deliberately spent two, even three rounds setting up a fairly simple shot on his very last cloud (involving half a dozen bounces at most, probably less), and he did absolutely nothing to interfere with the game-winning shot, despite having plenty of opportunities to mess up the path's construction. He has, now and then, ruined my "setups", but I think those may have been randomish coincidences.


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 Post subject: Re: New Mage minigames
PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 4:24 pm 
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First of all, water zones are completely static. They never change, since air elementals don't change other zones. And you get sent back to the beginning if the zone your elemental is occupying changes to an element incompatible with your elemental. In other words, if your character is an earth elemental standing on an earth zone and the earth zone changes to fire, the earth elemental is destroyed and sent back to the start.

As for Keapon, he's actually programmed to do check for clouds he can hit and if no clouds are hittable, he can check if casting trigger/fetch on any of the prisms would make a cloud vulnerable. He can think two turns ahead in this way. However, since he only does this part of the time and during the other turns, does random trigger/fetch actions (in order to avoid making him too difficult to beat), this isn't always obvious.

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 Post subject: Re: New Mage minigames
PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 4:54 pm 
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Erpy wrote:
First of all, water zones are completely static. They never change, since air elementals don't change other zones.


Yeah, Aziza's a naughty girl and made her game have a way OP water element. ;P

Quote:
In other words, if your character is an earth elemental standing on an earth zone and the earth zone changes to fire, the earth elemental is destroyed and sent back to the start.


Also, your elemental will be turned into a fire elemental iirc (since it was standing on fire). If your start zone is incompatible with fire (it's water for example), your elemental will promptly be destroyed again and made into the start zone element, though you don't get penalized for this or whatever.

Quote:
However, since he only does this part of the time and during the other turns, does random trigger/fetch actions (in order to avoid making him too difficult to beat), this isn't always obvious.


I did have the feeling that Keapon played ...straight-up crazy at times...


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 Post subject: Re: New Mage minigames
PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 6:43 pm 
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*crying* nice, thiefs are meant to be most enjoyable like in original, mage users are funnier now, but what about warriors ? is this just me who lack some more minigames, things to do or quests for them ?

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 Post subject: Re: New Mage minigames
PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 6:46 pm 
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Warriors get a tricked out combat system and a bajillion moves ;)

And, of course, you progress to paladinhood hopefully (yes, I know all classes technically can, but the paladin is the natural evolution of the fighter).


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