Paladin points vs. honor points

[bugmenot]

According to this topic, wizards and thieves can also become paladins (like in the original version and unlike QFG3). But is there any way I can see my paladin points? Also, what is the relation between paladin points and honor points?

Thanks!

[NeoSnax90]

As far as I know, Paladin Points are a hidden "extra score." You need to get at least... 25, I think, to become a Paladin. But, no, you can't see those points.

There is no correlation between Honor points and Paladin Points in QFG2 (remake or original) like there is in QFG3, even though you do need a certain amount of Honor to become a Paladin.

[bugmenot]

Can I at least see paladin points in the savegame files?

Also, you can only rob from four houses in the game. GAMEFAQ's new version for this game claims stealing from the Weapon Shop and/or the Guard's House (if it's even available without first stealing from the Metal Worker's House) does not lose you any paladin points. Is this true? What about honor points?

[Erpy]

Paladin points are hidden puzzle points. They cannot be repeatedly obtained from the same action (unlike honor points) and are added to your final score if you become a paladin. That's the only time you can see them. (so if you've obtained 480 puzzle points over the course of the game and 35 paladin points, your final score will be 515)

There's no way until the ending to see paladin points. (I'm not sure if you can see it if you try to hex-edit a savegame...I'm not supporting hexing savegames anyway)

The Faq doesn't state you DON'T get disqualified for entering those other breakin houses. It merely mentions which ones definitely do get you disqualified. And the section was merely quoting Corey Cole.

In the remake, entering any breakin house gets you disqualified. In practice, you can't do the weapon shop or Sahir Tarik house until you've finished the metalworker's house though.

[ape4]

]Also, you can only rob from four houses in the game. GAMEFAQ's new version for this game claims stealing from the Weapon Shop and/or the Guard's House (if it's even available without first stealing from the Metal Worker's House) does not lose you any paladin points. Is this true? What about honor points?

what is the guard's house? i have only been able to rob three places: the metal worker's, issur, and khaveen's. i even looked through some walkthroughs and didnt find any reference to robbing anywhere else

[Goilveig]

Can I at least see paladin points in the savegame files?

Also, you can only rob from four houses in the game. GAMEFAQ's new version for this game claims stealing from the Weapon Shop and/or the Guard's House (if it's even available without first stealing from the Metal Worker's House) does not lose you any paladin points. Is this true? What about honor points?

It doesn't matter at all; robbing the metal worker's house (which is a necessary prerequisite for either of the later shapier robberies) sets your PP permanently to 0. There's no specific need to make robbing the blacksmith or guard as disqualifiers, because by virtue of qualifying to rob those houses, you've already lost paladinhood for good.

[Erpy]

In a way it matters. If you perform a disqualifying action for the first time, you get a minor negative honor bonus and a disqualification. Any other time you perform a disqualifying action, you get a more significant negative honor bonus.

As for the third break-in house, visit Dinarzad later in the game and she'll give you another mission.

[ape4]

thanks erpy, for the answer, but more so for the game. i grew up playing the vga qfgs, and never played qfgii until the anthology came out. i never really liked it because of the parser (i am a notoriously bad speller). i think you guys did a fantasic job. the first time i played through i saw some things that i would have done differently if i were the type to get involved, but since im not and didnt i will make no complants. as for the battle system; i didnt like it at first, but when i got used to it i decided that it was the best from any qfg. if you ever have enough free time on your hands i think you should do an illicit patch for qfgiii modifying the system. i dont imagine that you would actually want to do this though. thanks a lot.

[<Lord Sloth>]

*spoilers of thief jobs in QFG 2 & 3*
Did you game makers consider the implications of making it not be a disqualifyer to steal from Khaveen? After all, as Mr. Manerly writes, simply obeying the law does not a paladin make; thus you can help someone deemed legally honorless because you deem it right.

Perhaps this case isn't so ethically clear, you're steeling from a greedy bully of a slave master, but it mainly for the sake of Signor Ferrari's obsession, as well as your own cut...but, you are the hero after all.

I suppose I'm just infatuated with the idea of the "shadow paladin" (the "noble thief", Robin Hood basically); who in episode 3 will steel from fairly decent tribal chiefs to resolve a misunderstanding. And as legend of the blackbird is important to the Thief character, I'd love to be able to get that in there, doing the occasional job while still refusing to steel from merchants or nice guards (Issur is a prick though, I think even Rakeesh would support taking him down a peg).

I don't know, to be truly like Mr. Hood, I'd have to share the wealth with the Rasierian underground and the poor, but then the Falcon wasn't even real...at least I can say those were my good intentions. Perhaps it shouldn't be as big a penalty as other thefts, and still be able to be a Paladin providing you don't harm the non-threatening fauna or sneak any x-ray peaks?

[Goilveig]

Well, the problem with that is that you don't even know you're robbing Khaveen until you get there and see who's in bed.

[adeyke]

The problem is that Ferrari is an obviously shady character who appreciates the situation in Raseir and cares nothing for heroes. So breaking the law and agreeing to steal from some unknown person in order to help Ferrari is hardly a noble act.

[Erpy]

Indeed. The thief doesn't leave the Blue Parrot with the plan to go and give Khaveen some mild payback (since you didn't know your target was his house), the thief left with the intention of stealing a statue from A house, regardless of the owner. So it's not exactly honorable, even though Khaveen is hardly a person worth going easy on.

[bugmenot]

What about stealing the weapon maker's bellows from outside his house?

What about answering yes to the money changer's request to steal without actually doing it later?

What about honor points? Does the thief lose any in each robbing?

[Erpy]

What about stealing the weapon maker's bellows from outside his house?

You lose some honor points for that, but no paladin points.

What about answering yes to the money changer's request to steal without actually doing it later?

You can make the sign to Dinarzad and accept her mission, but you won't actually lose honor points or get disqualified unless you follow through.

What about honor points? Does the thief lose any in each robbing?

Yes, every time you break into someone's house and almost every time you swipe something that doesn't belong to you, you lose honor points and entering someone's place illegally also disqualifies you from paladinhood.

[bugmenot]

But as for paladin points:

What about stealing the weapon maker's bellows from outside his house?

What about answering yes to the money changer's request to steal without actually doing it later?

Note the former can also be done via magic.

[Erpy]

No, you don't lose paladin points for either of them.

[<Lord Sloth>]

right, I'm sorry, this is what I get when I rely on memory of the *old* version and try to make informed suggestions. I'm sure I remember clicking on the ega window and being informed that "it's Khaveens house", but if Ferrari doesn't tell you that, it was likely just a mistake (and no longer in the remake)?.

I was figuring that Ferrari knows heroes like this love to stir up trouble, and would love to stick it to the man; although he does warn you against changing things, it's meant in regard to his business. Either way, he is playing you, only in this case he's playing on your dishonorable nature. And I'm guessing this is too fundamental to the original story to warrant a rewrite; say, if the thief hears the job, but based on his new understanding of honor decides to decline. In point of fact, I'm not even certain what happens when I do refuse, I recall Ferrari does not have much tolerance for you if you don't play it his way, usually getting you an eviction or a dagger from Whilmer. Are you basically doomed to be dishonorable or dead from the moment you give him the sign?

[Brainiac]

Are you basically doomed to be dishonorable or dead from the moment you give him the sign?

I would imagine so. That would be consistent with his later appearance. One of the points repeatedly mentioned concerning QfG5 is if you have a non-Thief with Thief skills and want to avoid being required to complete the Blackbird theft, NEVER make the Thief Sign when Ferrari is in the room (even if it's made to someone else in the room).

[Erpy]

Actually, when you give Ferrari the sign, then when he asks if you're willing to do him a favor, you can decline and he'll simply say he's disappointed in you, but there will be others. Then you can continue the game as usual. Making the sign to him, yet refusing to get the blackbird is the only way for a thief to become a paladin and gain full points.

[Brainiac]

Making the sign to him, yet refusing to get the blackbird is the only way for a thief to become a paladin and gain full points.

Say wha?

[Erpy]

If you become a paladin as a thief, the points you get for gaining paladinhood should make up for the points you lose because you can't engage in any illegal activity. Making the sign to Dinarzad and Ferrari, however, isn't covered by paladinhood since you can do it without being disqualified.

[njspannaus]

Indeed. The thief doesn't leave the Blue Parrot with the plan to go and give Khaveen some mild payback (since you didn't know your target was his house), the thief left with the intention of stealing a statue from A house, regardless of the owner. So it's not exactly honorable, even though Khaveen is hardly a person worth going easy on.

that says a lot for the philosophy of quest for glory..

so, if the hero was cruising around on his saurus one day and accidentally ran over the sultan (killing him), would he lose honor and/or paladin points? his intentions weren't wrong.. ALTHOUGH he did have a tiny sip of a djinn sling before going out riding--so his judgement could've been slightly impaired despite his high strength stat.. BUT the sip was part of a toast given by the Poet in tribute to peace

[Brainiac]

If you become a paladin as a thief, the points you get for gaining paladinhood should make up for the points you lose because you can't engage in any illegal activity. Making the sign to Dinarzad and Ferrari, however, isn't covered by paladinhood since you can do it without being disqualified.

Ah, so you meant out of 500. Okay then, without Paladin disqualifiers but with showing the Thief Sign, the total comes to...507. I take it there's no negative effect from the new addition concerning Khaveen then; can you warn him off or something?

[Erpy]

The way to deal with Khaveen in the antechamber costs honor points, but isn't an immediate disqualifier. (only because thieves have no other option at that point)

The 7 points you get as a thief with magic for calming Khaveen was an oversight. It'll be fixed in the next version.

[Brainiac]

What about the "proper" Thief ending? Can you warn him off the rope?