AGDInteractive - Sierra Adventure Game Remakes Forum

Gronagor wrote:For example, if someone used Mickey Mouse from Disney in their own cartoons, but with a different look, they have a 50/50 chance of actually getting away with it. But directly copying the look, name and manner the character is used, you're screwed.

You have to add "in USA" in your argument, because Mickey Mouse is public domain in the rest of the world. Disney gets away with it by slightly redesigning the character every five years or so, so that you can't use the character's current design, and also by using him on the company's logo so that it can be trademarked, in addition to bribing officers to extend the current copyright laws in USA so that their IP never expires, even though almost all Disney works have been based on IP that expired on the exact year they released their movies (most obvious examples being The Jungle Book and Peter Pan).

For an example of blatantly use of Mickey Mouse, you have Disneyland China.

Trademark and copyright are very different things. Most countries take copyright very seriously.

Gronagor wrote:

Darkpen wrote:

MusicallyInspired wrote:Reprogramming an entire game from scratch just to fix a flaw or two is a huge and relatively fruitless undertaking for the ones developing it. It's not worth it. It's also a LOT more copyright infringing than a remake with an actual graphical, musical, interface overhaul.

Actually, not really, since the rights holder for the art is [more than likely] the same as the game's.

No, he is right. The license holder will look less favorable (and you really have NOTHING to stand on when it does go to court) on your project if you use everything AS IS. In fact, you'll most probably be sued rather than just receiving a C&D letter.

For example, if someone used Mickey Mouse from Disney in their own cartoons, but with a different look, they have a 50/50 chance of actually getting away with it. But directly copying the look, name and manner the character is used, you're screwed.

You'd really only get away with it if it fell under parody, and under that, you could actually just use the character with its original look. Otherwise, the only way you'd get away with it is if the rights holder (not license, that's a different beast) is lenient enough. So even if Mickey looked different, it's still more like a 10/90-25/75 chance. Trademark and copyright holders have a duty to enforce their rights, otherwise they lose them.

My point is, infringement is infringement. If you use the art, story and characters, it's infringement. If you leave out the art, it's also infringement. It's not a lighter level because you leave out one asset. All you're really doing is making the infringement easier to prove.

You may argue that if you use art+story+characters, you're infringing three times as opposed to two (story+chars), but that would only work if there were multiple rights holders with interlicensing--I would argue that there's really one brand at play here, which works as a "container" for all assets, which you're infringing upon.

Take Star Wars fan films, for example (casting aside the fan license that Lucasfilm has allowed): making a Star Wars fan film is just as infringing to the Star Wars brand and assets (which includes logos, stories, characters, environments, names, fictional locations, etc) as making The Phantom Edit, which uses actual footage.

And you'd still get a C&D before getting sued, even if you were using actual art. Otherwise you'd have a heck of a procedural defense.

Gronagor wrote:Trademark and copyright are very different things. Most countries take copyright very seriously.

Copyright in China is the Right to Copy.

But yeah, both are covered by WIPO.

Nothing beats getting off the plane in China and seeing a very familiar mermaid... with very familiar napkins and cups... with very familiar colors... with the very familiar smell of coffee associated with it... and then looking up to see: "BUCKS"

I agree with you, and yes, however you look at it, it is infringement.
BUT what I was saying is that companies would make a bigger effort to protect their property, by sueing when you take everything as is and just throw it out there. I'm not saying either is a smaller sin, or less illegal. In short I'm saying that only re-programming a game to fix a few bugs isn't worth the trouble you could possibly get in.

Edit: And like always there are ways to claim it isn't the same product... just coincidence, which Disney's lawyers always seem to convince the court of - no matter how blatantly obvious the 'copying' is. Guess it comes down to how much money you have.

Gronagor wrote:I agree with you, and yes, however you look at it, it is infringement.
BUT what I was saying is that companies would make a bigger effort to protect their property, by sueing when you take everything as is and just throw it out there. I'm not saying either is a smaller sin, or less illegal. In short I'm saying that only re-programming a game to fix a few bugs isn't worth the trouble you could possibly get in.

Edit: And like always there are ways to claim it isn't the same product... just coincidence, which Disney's lawyers always seem to convince the court of - no matter how blatantly obvious the 'copying' is. Guess it comes down to how much money you have.

I agree, not worth the trouble. Probably not even worth the effort, either! While QG3 has some annoyances, I've always been able to finish the game, and wouldn't actively go looking for a remake/replacement. KQ1's Sierra remake, for example, always felt lacking to me, especially in light of the other ones they had done, and KQ2 never got the same treatment (and I never bothered to try to get it working, as I remembered my original copy had to boot straight to the game); same with KQ3. So I found AGDI through the KQ1 remake (and the, let's say, bastard child ), and through here got to enjoy incredible offerings (including IA's great remake of KQ3, which I thoroughly enjoyed).

Now, if someone could actually expand on QG3, different story (effort-wise, anyway). QG3 sometimes reminds me of KOTOR 2 and its Restoration Project: the anthill was glaring as far as cut content goes, and even the game's release was a surprise to me at the time (QG2 ended with the "Shadows of Darkness" after all)--and it unfortunately felt tacked on, length-wise. It's much too small (especially for some character throughlines) for such a vast, rich world.

And yes, unfortunately, it's a legal system, not a justice system. Lawyers are expensive, and don't underestimate the (IMO) underhanded practice of miring things in procedure to drag things out and hope that the other party runs out of money and drops out or is financially forced to settle.

But the way Disney usually does it is that they claim the original story is public domain, and the complainant really just rewrote it in such a way to be able to copyright it as new, but really has no claim because Disney supposedly used the original...

Kind of like Dan Brown's argument that he didn't completely rip off Holy Blood, Holy Grail, because he produced creative work around it. While it's true you can't copyright "factual" research, at least GK3 gave credit (even advertised the book in-game!). You may even argue that GK3 had the better story, but I'm a biased Sierra fan.

Look what I found! This pic is about a year and a half old.

navynuke04 wrote:Look what I found! This pic is about a year and a half old.

Neat, I hope the Restore/Play/Help (etc.) buttons remain on the main screen. I think that is a little cleaner than the KQ2+ method of showing the intro screen and then jumping to another screen.

I suppose I'll see later this month (as long as everything goes to plan).

The yellow buttons on that KQ3 Redux title screen remind me a lot of the KQ6 floppy version title screen.



The CD version of KQ6 used tan buttons instead. In fact, the CD version interface as a whole was generally revamped and recolored from the floppy version.

It only looks that yellow because of the photo. The colours are more washed out and brighter. In fact the buttons are more of a light brownish colour.

MusicallyInspired wrote:It only looks that yellow because of the photo. The colours are more washed out and brighter. In fact the buttons are more of a light brownish colour.

So more like the KQ6 CD title screen, then?

No, the CD version is purple and pink. At one point we copied the GUI from KQ6 CD as a placeholder. I and others on the team always thought that was an ugly scheme. The current GUI that we ended up with is more of a brownish/golden yellow scheme now and it looks quite nice. Eriq did a fantastic job on it. Just wait until you see! It looks fantastic. Well, you can see some of it on Eriq's Facebook page!

MusicallyInspired wrote:No, the CD version is purple and pink. At one point we copied the GUI from KQ6 CD as a placeholder. I and others on the team always thought that was an ugly scheme. The current GUI that we ended up with is more of a brownish/golden yellow scheme now and it looks quite nice. Eriq did a fantastic job on it. Just wait until you see! It looks fantastic. Well, you can see some of it on Eriq's Facebook page!

Purple and pink? I don't think we played the same CD version of KQ6. The text boxes and inventory screen are a light beigey-brown color, and the icon bar is brown and gray.

I think he is referring to the cursor set from KQ6. We used those as place holders as well, but relaxed them with animated cursors done by KQArtist. The GUIs were similar to what you described until they were redone by Eriq. They are awesome! Eriq really did a fantastic job.

This is the CD version GUI and it is purple and pink not brown or beige.

"Beige" was probably the wrong word to use. But yes, that is the KQ6 CD GUI. However it's always looked like tan/light brown to me (with a slight reddish undertone, sure, but hardly outright pink).

Back to topic: I'm eager to see the new KQ3 GUI. I wonder if it'll look anything like, say, the QFG1VGA or AGDI QFG2 icon bars?

Here's some examples of what the windows of the KQ3 GUI look like. Definitely makes the KQ6 CD GUI look more pinkish in comparison.

http://www.facebook.com/eriqchang#!/pho ... 62&theater

This article has a sample of the games GUIs.

http://www.gnomeslair.com/2011/01/kings ... redux.html

Wow. I thought this was already released Just goes to show how attentive a beta tester I am <_<

This is an awesome game guys. You're in for a treat.

Hi guys.

I would have to write pages after pages, should I make you understand how happy you make me feel, with the release of KQ III redux.

KQ3 was my first ever-adventure . Actually, it was my first-ever game back in the 80s, when I bought my first PC - an AMSTRAD 1512 with a CGA monitor. I've spent countless hours playing the game, I have so many memories from it...Anyway, I guess you get the point.

I've played IA's remake and I was really amazed by it - playing the a "Retouched" version of this very special , to me, game was an amazing experience.

Since January 21st I keep on logging in your website and checking the forum for any single messages or news regarding the release of KQ3 Redux. Yeah I know, Im a sick human being obsessed with Gwydion , LOL!

I subscribed just to let you know how eagerly Im expecting this release. Its been a month already guys, hope we're getting near! LOL!

Thanks a lot, take care

Themis, Greece

You beta testers want to download the game too. We gave one of the characters a new voice actor and his performance is awesome.

Don't worry. I definately plan on downloading the final version and playing through (without having to worry about reporting my bugs... what was I up to? 91?). This game is worth playing over and over. I think it is about as perfect as a game of this type can get. I actually opened the old Beta yesterday (to try and find the credits of who did the voices... I wasn't smart enough to open the manual :-P ) and watched the intro and had one of those "This is so amazingly awesome" moments, despite having seen it many times before.

navynuke04 wrote:I think he is referring to the cursor set from KQ6. We used those as place holders as well, but relaxed them with animated cursors done by KQArtist. The GUIs were similar to what you described until they were redone by Eriq. They are awesome! Eriq really did a fantastic job.

Actually, this was a collaborative effort by John Paul Selwood and I. JP drew and animated new icons which I then "debossed" and integrated into the rock interface illustration. The rest of the interface work - the branches and all of the tedious interface boxes - took roughly a week or so to finish with JP's help on detailing some of the branches.

Can you imagine what the game would look like if done in high-res? I'm a sucker for good interface design... one can only imagine!

Awesome photo, Navy!

edenwaith wrote:Neat, I hope the Restore/Play/Help (etc.) buttons remain on the main screen. I think that is a little cleaner than the KQ2+ method of showing the intro screen and then jumping to another screen.

Totally agree! I felt the same way. When we were working on the game, I really wanted the title screen and menu options to be done the KQ6 way (except it had to be less crowded - luckily, KQ3's subtitle is shorter than KQ6's!), so I created that title screen interface. Behind-the-scenes story... Between various original placeholders and the complete Eriq Chang interface, I had taken a full pass at the interface, and that title screen and its interface is what's left of the version I did - it's still in the game, right guys? LOL, I don't remember.

Another interesting behind-the-scenes note - the original title screen (as seen in KQ6) had the black bar running along the top. That always annoyed me! Any non-game screens (game screen having the status bar at the top, of course), should be full screen, without a black bar there. Stretching the original art would be unthinkable, so I drew in the missing top part, so that the title screen would be full screen.

I can't wait for everyone to play the game! I haven't played any of the final builds, so I'll be enjoying it again along with everyone else on release day!

It took less than nine hours to exceed 1000 downloads! Not bad considering the time of day we released the game!