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 Post subject: Re: This game is way too difficult
PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 1:28 am 
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Enchantermon wrote:
calvinfoo wrote:
- DOTT: DOTT is really reallly full of ILLOGICAL puzzles to the extreme. Who would think of washing our car will actually cause a rain/lighting?!?!? Who would think of painting the tree to RED will fool Washinton to chop the tree down?!?

These are actually both logical. Painting the tree red makes Washington think it's a cherry tree, and a very common myth is a story about Washington as a little boy chopping down a cherry tree.
As for the car, a common gag found in cartoons is rain coming whenever a person decides to wash their car. It's something of a representation of really bad luck, I believe.

Now, I'm from the US and so is LucasArts, so I don't know how prevalent these myths are outside of the country. If you're from somewhere outside the US, then it's possible that these things aren't well-known to you. In that sense, I can see how the puzzles might seem illogical, even though it's just a result of cultural confusion.


Yes, I know the story about Washinton chop down the three and confessed to his father, I was told about the story when I was a little boy even I am living on the opposite side of America.

Yes, you are right in a way, it is LOGICAL, but IN WACKY COMICAL way, the logic which apply in cartoons (eg Tom & Jerry, Loney Tunes, etc...)

If you use realife commonsense logic, it doesn't apply in DOTT or Sam & Max.


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 Post subject: Re: This game is way too difficult
PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 9:26 am 
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Well... In their defense, Day of the Tentacle and Sam and Max ARE cartoons. In a sense.

As far as my experiences with those games is concerned, I was never able to make it through Sam and Max on my own. I found it frustrating.

Day of the Tentacle, however, I was able to figure out without help. It was a challenge, but all of the puzzles made sense. I also was able to make it through Monkey Island 2, though I have to admit that the monkey wrench puzzle was pretty unfair to anyone who had never heard of a monkey wrench.

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 Post subject: Re: This game is way too difficult
PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 10:02 am 
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Although I found quite a few 'puzzles' in DOTT to be silly, the carwashing for rain makes quite a bit of sense. That usually happens with me. :(


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 Post subject: Re: This game is way too difficult
PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 11:33 am 
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oversight1979 wrote:
Well its frustrating and I don't do well with frustration. Thats why I would like a walkthrough.


This is nothing compared to the old days where you had to dial a 900# for hints or buy a hint book, so if you were broke you were left to figure it out on your own.
Always felt much better solving it myself than the empty feeling of going through a game with a walkthrough.

Whats wrong with todays gamers? Hell I'm severe ADHD and I have WAY more patience than most of them, and thats saying something.


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 Post subject: Re: This game is way too difficult
PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 12:02 pm 
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Xandarius wrote:
Well... In their defense, Day of the Tentacle and Sam and Max ARE cartoons. In a sense.

As far as my experiences with those games is concerned, I was never able to make it through Sam and Max on my own. I found it frustrating.

Day of the Tentacle, however, I was able to figure out without help. It was a challenge, but all of the puzzles made sense. I also was able to make it through Monkey Island 2, though I have to admit that the monkey wrench puzzle was pretty unfair to anyone who had never heard of a monkey wrench.
Actually, there's a book in Phatt Island library named "101 uses for monkeys" or something like that, that talks about monkey wrenchs and how useful they are in plumbing.

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 Post subject: Re: This game is way too difficult
PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 9:34 pm 
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Amazing that people think this game is too difficult. How did you manage 20 years ago, when all games were this difficult (or much worse!)?


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 Post subject: Re: This game is way too difficult
PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 1:31 am 
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MartijnF wrote:
Amazing that people think this game is too difficult. How did you manage 20 years ago, when all games were this difficult (or much worse!)?


1. Players nowadays don't play anything without 3D
2. Players spent too much time on WASD
3. Players don't play games required brain these days
4. Players don't play games without Multiplayer
5. Players don't play games without killing one another
6. Players locked themselves inside the box, and never required to think outside the box. Because everything is pre-planned.

So if KQ3R requires latest nVidia 3D, running on full HD, mutliple Gwydions can join the KQ Server, you can be the Wizzard or Barmaid, or try to kill some pirates, well... yeah... that would please the general crowds... If you ask them to think outside the box, they will be totally clueless and don't know what to do with the keyboard, and never know they can type "Get Carrot" in the command prompt

KQ3R is easy enough, I really find it surprising that some people actually request hints for simple solution such as
"Where can I find a cactus?" - I wonder did they even spend any effort? Cactus - The only a hand full of screens are in the desert, if only they just search thru all of them, and logically you can't just plug a cactus with my HAND. Simple as that.

or "What is the answer to the final puzzle in Treasure Island?" - I almost fall off my chair when I read that. At worst case, there is only 24 combinations, if you would try all of it all and you should've got the answer!


Last edited by calvinfoo on Wed Mar 09, 2011 2:55 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: This game is way too difficult
PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 2:51 am 
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Xandarius wrote:
Well... In their defense, Day of the Tentacle and Sam and Max ARE cartoons. In a sense.

As far as my experiences with those games is concerned, I was never able to make it through Sam and Max on my own. I found it frustrating.

Day of the Tentacle, however, I was able to figure out without help. It was a challenge, but all of the puzzles made sense. I also was able to make it through Monkey Island 2, though I have to admit that the monkey wrench puzzle was pretty unfair to anyone who had never heard of a monkey wrench.


Well, Sam and Max are relatively much easier than DOTT. DOTT is really really hard, especially after all three portals are activated, then things has to be passed thru it. When I am stucked, I really clueless as it is rather difficult to let me test all items on everything.

I can never finish DOTT, and I gave up, the puzzles are just too difficult and beyond my imagination, without any clue or hint, I couldn't complete the game. Years later, with Internet, I searched the solution online, and complete the game with the help from the walkthru. Really it is the thoughest adventure games I've ever played.


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 Post subject: Re: This game is way too difficult
PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 5:11 am 
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You're right that DOTT doesn't make it easy to try out different items. I was forced to think through which items I should send first. Actually, the puzzle that frustrated me the most was reading the book to the horse. I don't remember there being any clues to that. I just tried it, and it worked.

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 Post subject: Re: This game is way too difficult
PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 12:49 am 
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oversight1979 wrote:
"Can't. Its either Left or Right. South is not an option. Nice try."


Try going north from the tevern.


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 Post subject: Re: This game is way too difficult
PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 1:47 am 
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Xandarius wrote:
You're right that DOTT doesn't make it easy to try out different items. I was forced to think through which items I should send first. Actually, the puzzle that frustrated me the most was reading the book to the horse. I don't remember there being any clues to that. I just tried it, and it worked.


I always respect any players who can complete DOTT without any hints. I completed many adventure games without hints, but the difficulty just couldn't match DOTT.


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 Post subject: Re: This game is way too difficult
PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 1:51 am 
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Xandarius wrote:
You're right that DOTT doesn't make it easy to try out different items. I was forced to think through which items I should send first. Actually, the puzzle that frustrated me the most was reading the book to the horse. I don't remember there being any clues to that. I just tried it, and it worked.


DOTT not to say it is difficult, but more precisely, I would discribe it as TRICKY puzzles. Most of the solution are not stright forward, neither technically logical.


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 Post subject: Re: This game is way too difficult
PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 12:26 pm 
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calvinfoo wrote:
DOTT not to say it is difficult, but more precisely, I would discribe it as TRICKY puzzles. Most of the solution are not stright forward, neither technically logical.

Interesting discussion... I have played adventure games since the days of the textbased Cave on the hardware available WHEN the game was originally released. I can say it’s not just the puzzles being tricky with no sources of hints or cheats but the graphics of the time (e.g. monochrome 12” CRT monitor with CGA Graphics card or even 14” VGA CRT with VGA) means that you often could not recognize the object so you had to type “look table” and guess at the often sarcastic message telling you what the object was. I remember typing “look table” in LSL1 in the room inside the bar to be told there is a rose on the table... The thing just looked like a dark spot with the hardware of the time. So if you were in a screen where death was imminent... it could be frustrating typing and guessing... Now you can see all the cactus and people complain about having to click on them...
Another point for me was the cultural aspect... I never got the rubber chicken thing... it’s not a part of my culture.
The longest I was stuck in a game was Monkey Island II – I had not used the leaflet from Captain Kate on the poster on Phatt Island so I did not have the fake grog to win the drinking contest and travelled from island to island hopelessly. Even doing memory dumps to look at the possible conversations did not help. Talking to a friend months later he told me about the poster. I immediately went home and completed the game...

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 Post subject: Re: This game is way too difficult
PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 12:33 pm 
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Xandarius wrote:
You're right that DOTT doesn't make it easy to try out different items. I was forced to think through which items I should send first. Actually, the puzzle that frustrated me the most was reading the book to the horse. I don't remember there being any clues to that. I just tried it, and it worked.

Interesting... I distinctly remembering that looking at the book gave a message about how booring it was and I could be mistaken but if you read the book you (the character) were falling asleep after a few pages. That was actually one of the easier puzzles for me... What was difficult was determining what items to send to whom and where to use it... I often played the game with a group of friends at whoever had the best hardware of the day... Though this often helped with ideas... Talk about too many cooks...

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 Post subject: Re: This game is way too difficult
PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 4:53 am 
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Xandarius wrote:
You're right that DOTT doesn't make it easy to try out different items.

Eh? To send an item, you click "Give", click the item, then click the picture of the person you want to send it to. Doesn't get much simpler than that.


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 Post subject: Re: This game is way too difficult
PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 6:06 am 
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Enchantermon wrote:
Xandarius wrote:
You're right that DOTT doesn't make it easy to try out different items.

Eh? To send an item, you click "Give", click the item, then click the picture of the person you want to send it to. Doesn't get much simpler than that.


Say is simpler than action. Especially it has so many items, wanted to pass it thru all zones and try out all the posibilities available... not impossible, but tricky and the odds are slimer than any other adventure games. none of the adventure games require you to pass the items around and control three characters at the same time and at three different zones, and inter-related to each other.

Usually the world is not too big for you to fully explore and test out all possiblity of combination if worst case. But DOTT has three worlds, and each worlds are large enough, testing all of it is rather difficult.


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 Post subject: Re: This game is way too difficult
PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 2:05 pm 
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Enchantermon wrote:
Xandarius wrote:
You're right that DOTT doesn't make it easy to try out different items.

Eh? To send an item, you click "Give", click the item, then click the picture of the person you want to send it to. Doesn't get much simpler than that.

I think 'try out' is not only about the interface but about figuring out who (three characters) where (many places) and when to use an item. I do agree that as you play along and think about the plot you are inclined to be somewhat more prepared to solve the puzzles. But again remember how much of it is cultural - based on US history and social interaction... Also the game has a fairly linear plot.
I guess what I am trying to say is that the idea of trial and error in problem solving is not an easy approach in that game, or any game for that matter, but which one of us have not resorted to randomly trying items when frustrated and stuck in a game? [No Internet, Cheat sheet, walkthrough etc. Days] This is difficult in DOTT...
I only got the humour of turning off the pump in Monkey Island II after I was stuck and started randomly using items and actions on the pump. Seriously using the monkey on the pump? (play on the word monkey wrench). Two things here – We (in my culture) refer to those tools as Spanners, not wrenches. For us a Wrench is ONLY a Monkey Wrench (cultural stumbling block) and secondly would anyone really us a Monkey to stop a pump? However, on looking closely at the money icon it does look like a wrench!
I can go on and on about it but there are good puzzles like the tentacle costume... You see the American Flag (Bernard - present), Betsy the flag creator (Hoagie – past) and Laverne needs a costume. OK so Hoagie switches the design to create a tentacle flag... Obviously it has to be sent to Laverne...

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 Post subject: Re: This game is way too difficult
PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 10:01 pm 
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i HAVE COMPLETED THE GAME Turning him into a cat was the end of...
and for the record I have turned that ol' wizard into a cat 3 times

1) On the orginal Serria Game back in 1994
2) On the Infamous Games in 2007
3) and now on Redux by Interactive

Please roll in the next Mananan !


Heres some ideas you may like to add:

1) Whenever the Wizard can we have this song:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NA90Ilym ... re=related

Mananan + an = Manananan do do do-do-do

2) Include a lift from the house to the ground so Gwidian wouldn't have to go down the mountain on that spral pathway


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 Post subject: Re: This game is way too difficult
PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 10:57 pm 
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Actually where I live Mannan (Manan) and Nannan (Nanan) are common names... but Mannanan is uncommon...
I have found that in the original Sierra games what seemed to be fiction often turned out to be myths and legends of other cultures...
I wonder if the original inspiration for Mannanan was the Celtic, Viking and Maritime traditions of the Isle of Mann and the clash with St. Patrick bringing Christianity...

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 Post subject: Re: This game is way too difficult
PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2011 2:21 am 
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calvinfoo wrote:
Enchantermon wrote:
Xandarius wrote:
none of the adventure games require you to pass the items around and control three characters at the same time and at three different zones, and inter-related to each other.

You may see it differently, but I think that's one of DOTT's (and Maniac Mansion's) strengths, not a weakness.


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 Post subject: Re: This game is way too difficult
PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2011 6:27 am 
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calvinfoo wrote:
Enchantermon wrote:
calvinfoo wrote:
- DOTT: DOTT is really reallly full of ILLOGICAL puzzles to the extreme. Who would think of washing our car will actually cause a rain/lighting?!?!? Who would think of painting the tree to RED will fool Washinton to chop the tree down?!?

These are actually both logical. Painting the tree red makes Washington think it's a cherry tree, and a very common myth is a story about Washington as a little boy chopping down a cherry tree.
As for the car, a common gag found in cartoons is rain coming whenever a person decides to wash their car. It's something of a representation of really bad luck, I believe.

Now, I'm from the US and so is LucasArts, so I don't know how prevalent these myths are outside of the country. If you're from somewhere outside the US, then it's possible that these things aren't well-known to you. In that sense, I can see how the puzzles might seem illogical, even though it's just a result of cultural confusion.


Yes, I know the story about Washinton chop down the three and confessed to his father, I was told about the story when I was a little boy even I am living on the opposite side of America.

Yes, you are right in a way, it is LOGICAL, but IN WACKY COMICAL way, the logic which apply in cartoons (eg Tom & Jerry, Loney Tunes, etc...)

If you use realife commonsense logic, it doesn't apply in DOTT or Sam & Max.


I played both Sam and Max and DOTT without any help when they were first released... and thoroughly enjoyed both of them...
Sam and Max was difficult as some of the puzzles required ‘cartoon thinking’ but I found that the DOTT puzzles based on US history were often ideas with which we who live outside the US were familiar. Other ‘simple’ actions were not intuitive e.g. using coins in the washing machine (not common here)
I had no problem with getting Washington to cut down the tree by painting it red to look like a cherry tree. However, other details like Betsy Ross and the design of the flag were new information for me... I didn’t know long ago people used wooden false teeth... but I don’t think that’s cultural...
BTW: Washing your car does bring rain!!! LOL!!! We are very familiar with that one in my country... In a island where drive through car washes are unheard of, it can be quite frustrating how dirty your car can get very after driving in a heavy shower when you had spent time and energy to clean it a short while before.

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 Post subject: Re: This game is way too difficult
PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2011 10:38 pm 
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TriniMage wrote:
Actually where I live Mannan (Manan) and Nannan (Nanan) are common names... but Mannanan is uncommon...
I have found that in the original Sierra games what seemed to be fiction often turned out to be myths and legends of other cultures...
I wonder if the original inspiration for Mannanan was the Celtic, Viking and Maritime traditions of the Isle of Mann and the clash with St. Patrick bringing Christianity...


Trust me the songs better


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 Post subject: Re: This game is way too difficult
PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 10:54 pm 
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lol This thread has been a hilarious read. I gotta admit that I too, am having some difficulties and frustrations. At least by now, there are some youtube walkthroughs to go through, but i hate having to do that.

I had problems finding the library initially too. That screen just seems really difficult to find.. however solving the puzzle was ultimately satisfying and I'm really enjoying the new additions :D

I also can't find the cactus. After reading this thread I'm going to go back and look again, but I swear I must have clicked every cactus in the desert with the knife a billion times -_-

anyways.. This is really fun. I wasn't all that excited about this release when it first came out but now that I'm giving it a chance, I'm really enjoying it. Reading this guys dissatisfaction with it was really a great laugh though xD and i enjoyed picking up the hints on the read :) cheers to AGD for a job well done. I wonder if that other group will ever finish the KQ IV they were working on.. heh. still eagerly anticipating IA's sq2. Classic Adventure Games forever


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 Post subject: Re: This game is way too difficult
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 8:44 am 
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Just remember to not save after the Wizard has returned/awakened. Even when the time display shows a red color you can go down and get new porridge from three bears' house.

I myself loved it and found it much more challenging than KQ2+. That's kinda ironic since KQ3 Redux follows the original game much more.


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 Post subject: Re: This game is way too difficult
PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 12:16 pm 
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Just wanted to add that some of the randomly triggered events/schedules are frustrating for newbie players... like the Behr family trips with the going/returning/home/mama in garden states (especially annoying when you drop by to grab a quick porridge refill with the timer on red), or the treehouse bandit being randomly asleep/awake (regardless of the welcome possibility of being forewarned by looking in through the window). "Enter and exit the screen 'til it's right" is a counter-intuitive and non-user-friendly approach, and can be off-putting for players unaccustomed to Sierra game logic circa 1986. Just one of those things that would've been better off being left out of a remake.


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