You have chosen....*spoilers*

[billyhtchcoc]

Personally, I think the puzzle is fine how it is. Maybe drop some more clues somewhere along the line, yes, but I too am one of those who came up with the right answer on the first try.

My logic was simply that you need food/clothing first because food gives you the strength to use the tools to build/find a shelter, shelter second because shelter is far more important than knowledge (you can be as smart as you wish, but without shelter you'll die pretty quickly), and knowledge third because wealth without knowledge just results in squandering said wealth (as the old saying goes "a fool and his money are soon parted".)

My issue with Seran was that the hidden item you find during that runs somewhat counter to the message of the test since you wouldn't find it without attempting to take more than just the orb, which was all you were told you needed.

My 2 cents.

[Erpy]

The hidden item was optional, so we never intended to point it out to players.

[Lambonius]

Wow. People are WAY overthinking this one. Sorry guys, this was a pretty clear cut and obvious solution. And even if it isn't, it should only take you a maximum of maybe four attempts to get it right based on trial and error, since it is patently obvious (if you pay attention and look at the items first) that the jewel is last.

Also, just because you got stumped on a puzzle doesn't mean that it is "completely arbitrary and logic doesn't apply at all!" It just means that you didn't get it. Oh boy.

Also, anyone else see the irony in the guy from the TSL team chastising AGDI for "fourth wall breaking?" (Especially when this puzzle was not, in fact, fourth wall breaking at all.)

Gotta love people's sense of entitlement around here.

[Blackthorne519]

Yeah. I didn't think this one was a real nailbiter. Puzzle's FINE just the way it is.


Bt

[JohnWWells]

The puzzle doesn't ask "which is key to survival" or "which is monetarily worth more." It asks about value. If you ask about value, you will always get different answers. Even worse, the people who post on this board are a group biased TOWARDS thinking like an old-school Sierra game. If, without context, you handed that scenario to a hundred people, you'd might get an even WIDER range of answers.

No, I'm not a philosophy major. If I were, I might agree that a philosophy problem has some simple answer, as long as it agreed with my school of thought. I'm a scientist and teacher, and I've stayed up enough nights solving and writing problems to know when somebody has written a question with multiple right answers. This doesn't mean the puzzle is bad, but that the range of answers being accepted is WAY too small.

There are 24 possibilities (6 if you assume the jewel, which would have the highest market value, must actually have the lowest value), and to assume that all but 1 are "obviously wrong" is to make a pretty sweeping judgment about what the player values.

Or, to put it more simply:

Which is most likely:
* 1) The design team knows how to measure true value. The dissenting players are wrong.
* 2) The dissenting players know how to measure true value. The design team is wrong.
* 3) Nobody really knows how to measure true value.

* If the answer is 1, the design team ought to claim their Nobel Prize at once.
* If the answer is 2, the dissenters ought to claim their Nobel Prize at once.
* If the answer is 3, the puzzle is expecting players to understand something that nobody really understands, in a very specific way.

Lambonius: I never said it was arbitrary. Arbitrary would be making us pick a number between 1 and 24. This is better (because it provokes thought) and worse (because it punishes you for thinking.) If I understand the reasoning behind the "correct" answer, how can you possibly think that I don't get it?

I think the best way to resolve this is to say that the design team did okay, but Seran's a singleminded ghost who doesn't really care about fairness.

[Blackthorne519]

You guys should have thrown pizza in as a choice. That's all that puzzle needed. A good pizza.


Bt

[JohnWWells]

You guys should have thrown pizza in as a choice. That's all that puzzle needed. A good pizza.

Blackthorne wins.

The puzzle should be "choose the one that is most valuable: knowledge, clothing, shelter, wealth, pizza."

And anybody who does not pick pizza dies. Because it's PIZZA.

[Bobbin Threadbare]

I don't think that there are any wrong answer either. We, people, are also called individuals because each of us are unique. But there are also some who thinks the same. For those who think the test are straigtforward then good for you guys. And for those who thinks differently, let's just say each of us has different aspect of life. And again, for my case, I view it from the "pirate" perspective which I refer to any literature that I already saw or learned. Then there are those who view from the "slave" perspective. Another one is the "heir" perspective, and there are still more perspectives here.

Maybe this was never about developers versus other devs or player. Maybe it's all about each's perspectives.

BT, pizza also represents food you know. but I do get the qfg reference. In chinese cuisine, it's equivalent to fried rice because the freedom to put in any kind of toppings you like.

[JohnWWells]

I don't think that there are any wrong answer either. We, people, are also called individuals because each of us are unique. But there are also some who thinks the same. For those who think the test are straigtforward then good for you guys. And for those who thinks differently, let's just say each of us has different aspect of life. And again, for my case, I view it from the "pirate" perspective which I refer to any literature that I already saw or learned. Then there are those who view from the "slave" perspective. Another one is the "heir" perspective, and there are still more perspectives here.

Maybe this was never about developers versus other devs or player. Maybe it's all about each's perspectives.

I think this is all very true, but unfortunately, the game has specifically told everyone who does not have the dev perspective that they are wrong, knocks them off every time they try to state their priorities, and then, to top it off, tells them to "get their priorities in order."

Had I gotten it wrong one more time, I would have gotten my priorities in order by going out to do something more useful, like reading, cooking, working in my garden, or earning a little money. I do not think I would have returned to the game if, on reading this thread, I saw that the dev response was "You are all wrong and don't get it, we do."

But again, if there had been pizza to choose, all would have been well! Or possibly pizza and a remake. "Choose... the most valuable."

And then, wham, I pick the remake, pizza, and maybe two of the others, and it's all settled.

[billyhtchcoc]

If, without context, you handed that scenario to a hundred people, you'd might get an even WIDER range of answers.

I'd propose we actually do this. I actually asked a (small) number of people this question once I saw the decision post in here, three of whom I KNOW aren't used to Sierra games.

They all answered the proper order (one of whom DID, however, put shelter conditionally first dependent on environment of the test.)

Two of them (a major Survivor fan and a major LOST fan) said they came up with the order by looking at their favorite respective shows. On "Survivor" while everyone was there for the money, the first things they look for is food and shelter (often in that order). Same goes for "LOST" once their shock wore off.

I'd suggest the poll.

[Lambonius]

I don't see how it could possibly not be obvious that the jewel is last. Before he gives you the test, Seran goes on this long monologue lamenting his own greed in life. How much more obvious do you have to get that the choice that amounts to the greediest response (putting wealth first) would be the wrong one? That narrows down the possibilities to 6, as you pointed out, which, even if you just use pure trial and error, shouldn't take too long to find the right combination. I dunno...I just don't see why people are having such trouble with it. I get that it could be a little vague, especially if you try to over think it, but I don't think the correct order is illogical in the slightest. To say that this is a case of the developers creating a puzzle that requires the player to be able to read their minds is just patently incorrect. There is definite logic to the correct solution here.

[MartijnF]

Nothing wrong with this puzzle imho. I didn't do it correctly straight away, but it also didn't take me very long to get it right.

[billyhtchcoc]

Totally agree Lambonius.

[JohnWWells]

I'd propose we actually do this. I actually asked a (small) number of people this question once I saw the decision post in here, three of whom I KNOW aren't used to Sierra games.

Great idea! Even if this doesn't tells what the right answer is, it does tell us what the common answers are.

Here is how I will do this:

* I don't want to ask strangers, even if that's the best way to get an unbiased answer. I will ask people on my AIM friends list - but I will use a random number generator to pick from the people online.

* If they agree to try the puzzle, I will copy-paste the following:

"You are on a deserted island, trying to retrieve a treasure. As you near your goal, you encounter the ghost of a pirate, who says that he perished on that island as a result of his greed. In order to be worthy of his treasure, you must pass a test.

He presents four things to you:

A book
Food
A jewel
Tools for building

He then asks you to rank these in value, from most valuable to least. How do you answer?"

* If they insist that a ranking is impossible, I will tell them to rank them anyway. I will give no other hints, but will ask for their reason afterwards.

Does this seem fair? I'm giving it a go.

[Brainiac]

You guys should have thrown pizza in as a choice. That's all that puzzle needed. A good pizza.

Wrong remake. Go play QfG2.

[Lambonius]

I'd propose we actually do this. I actually asked a (small) number of people this question once I saw the decision post in here, three of whom I KNOW aren't used to Sierra games.

Great idea! Even if this doesn't tells what the right answer is, it does tell us what the common answers are.

Here is how I will do this:

* I don't want to ask strangers, even if that's the best way to get an unbiased answer. I will ask people on my AIM friends list - but I will use a random number generator to pick from the people online.

* If they agree to try the puzzle, I will copy-paste the following:

"You are on a deserted island, trying to retrieve a treasure. As you near your goal, you encounter the ghost of a pirate, who says that he perished on that island as a result of his greed. In order to be worthy of his treasure, you must pass a test.

He presents four things to you:

A book
Food
A jewel
Tools for building

He then asks you to rank these in value, from most valuable to least. How do you answer?"

* If they insist that a ranking is impossible, I will tell them to rank them anyway. I will give no other hints, but will ask for their reason afterwards.

Does this seem fair? I'm giving it a go.

You'll have to include the look descriptions of each item as well, since that's a big part of figuring out what's what.

[Erpy]

And I suppose the reason for giving it a go would be to gather official evidence that you're correct and the game's death message in that situation was an incorrect accusation, no?

For some reason, I'm reminded of this picture.



Official statement: that puzzle isn't gonna change, even if someone makes a scientific study out of this that provides scientific evidence that he was right and we were wrong.

[JohnWWells]

Actually, Erpy's right.

The fact that I'm willing to argue this does indicate, possibly, that my priorities are out of order - but not in the way that the puzzle suggested. I've been trolled! I've been intensely and deeply trolled by a death message!

I'm not sure if that was the intent, but it seems to have been the outcome, and the responses certainly don't help.

The developers did a great job in making a lushly rendered version of Llewdor. This particular puzzle was not equal to that level of virtue.

On my end, at least, this discussion is over.

[goatmeal]

...My concern here: if I'm dealing with pirate ghost...

Thank goodness this didn't turn into a discussion of the old South Park "Korn's Groovy Pirate Ghost Mystery" (1999) conundrum: Pirate Ghost or Ghost Pirate?

At least we KNOW Seran was a pirate who became a ghost, as opposed to a ghost who decided to turn to an after-life of piracy.

* * * * * * * * * *

This puzzle here reminded me of the "Temple of Sekhmet" 'vision quest' in QFG3. It was a nice throw-back...

[oberonqa]

Also, anyone else see the irony in the guy from the TSL team chastising AGDI for "fourth wall breaking?" (Especially when this puzzle was not, in fact, fourth wall breaking at all.)

I was only a temporary admin for Phoenix Online Studios.... and haven't been affiliated with them since September 2010.

EDIT: And if I was a member of Phoenix Online Studios, would I have made a constructive critique post about a part of Episode 3 on a public forum? I think not.

http://www.postudios.com/blog/forum/ind ... #msg316603

The visual quality of the arcade segment is jaw-dropping. To see that kind of cinematic quality in a fan-game is nothing short of spectacular. It was a nice change of pace, though I feel that there should have been a little more time in each "leg" of the sequence to allow for error.

This isn't much of an issue when Graham is riding the horse dodging the shadow-serpents, as that is pretty cut-and-dry. However, once Graham reaches the base of the tower and has to go into the carriage to get the key, there isn't much time to examine your surroundings for a suitable way out. The placement of the key is right... but the small window that your supposed to use to escape the carriage appears to be too small for Graham to fit through and there is no subtle highlighting (even a slight light source) which would denote a possible escape route. Your given approximately 24 seconds to get out of that carriage (3 knocks from the shadow-serpents with an approximate 8 seconds between each knock), with the game proceeding to enter the falling over the cliff death sequence immediately after the third knock. To make matters more stressful on the player, the timer doesn't stop ticking for animations or narration. This is an amateur design flaw and essentially screams "click randomly and wildly until you get lucky and find where the designer hid the hotspot".

A simple fix for this segment would be to increase the time-limit in the carriage sequence and add a visual queue that the small window can be used as an escape. The visual queue doesn't need to be grossly obvious... something as simple as moonlight shining down through the window would be adequate. And yes, by increasing the time-limit that gives the player some breathing room and you run the risk of diminishing the tension of the scene that has been established... but sometimes this is necessary. The tension was already established in the horseback chase. Giving the player an extra 10-15 seconds in the carriage is a good idea, as the carriage would be viewed by most players as a spot of momentary safety where they can catch their bearings for a moment. Take the movie Aliens, for example. There is a point where the Colonial Marines go into the heart of the Alien Hive and get their butts handed to them. Ripley drives down in the command center, picks up the survivors, and makes a bee-line out of the nest with the Aliens in pursuit. Long story short, after this narrow escape, the survivors hole up in a segment of the colony and barricade themselves in. We, as the audience, know that this won't work for long... so we expect the Aliens to find a way in. The filmmakers also know that we know this, but use that time to give the audience a chance to catch their breath after the action that ensued in the hive. Tension was not lost by having the characters barricade themselves in for about 20 minutes of screen-time because we, the audience, know the Aliens will break through. But that 20 minutes of screen-time gives us a chance to calm down so we can get the adrenaline pumping again when the Aliens finally do break through the barricade.

Once you get inside the tower, it's pretty straightforward as well... except it's very difficult due to the position of the camera to see that the door Graham opened with the key is wide open and that you must close the door before moving towards the stairwell. If you do not close the door, one of the shadow-serpents will dart into the room and kill you. This is obviously a visual clue that the door is opened, but since the shadow-serpent can (and frequently does) clip through the tower walls when it comes in to grab Graham, it's not much of a clue. Given the fact that Graham closed the carriage door when he entered the carriage... the player is left to assume that Graham would close the door to the tower after entering. The fact that he does not forces the player to not trust Graham, and by extension, the designers.

This can be easily fixed by either having Graham close the door when he enters the tower (like he closed the door to the carriage)... or adjust the position of the door so that it is easier to notice that the door is open and not just a part of the wall.

In both instances, the death text you receive is the same, which says sometimes it's better to keep to the shadows and not needlessly stick your neck out. This text is ambiguous and not even remotely relevant to either of these situations.

Wow.... looks like I am capable of being objective and provide constructive feedback despite having been a temporary admin for Phoenix.

[Lambonius]

I was only a temporary admin for Phoenix Online Studios.... and haven't been affiliated with them since September 2010.

Ah. My mistake. Sorry.

[sirkinght]

This puzzle had me questioning a bit about the tools vs. the knowledge. The jewel and food seemed obvious as a first and last to me. For what ever reason the tools didn't clue off the "shelter" concept since they were not a house of sorts...

I guess I kept wondering if all the tools in the world were provided to an Ape would it be able to survive? Wisdom/Knowledge might at least let you know what to build to save yourself.

In any event there are only 10 choices based upon the mathematical permutations needed to solve a 4 option rank list. So if someone is too lazy to do this or hasn't taken math fundamentals yet, then now would be a good time to look up how to solve such a puzzle. So it takes you 10 tries... oh darn!
Does anyone remember the original KQ series? That game taught me how to write things down and save before suicide and always after success. Some days that game could put you in tears.

-Sir Knight

[Brainiac]

In any event there are only 10 choices based upon the mathematical permutations needed to solve a 4 option rank list.

Actually, no. You are correct that it's about permutations instead of combinations since order does matter, but there are actually 24 possibilities, not ten. It's hardly outside of the realm of a trial-and-error solution (not that such a method should be employed by design).

[Chyron_8472]

Why is it that people are getting stumped on this?

Food, Shelter, and Knowledge. How hard is that?

I admit to having messed up at first when I did it, but I only switched knowledge with tools because I thought it would be more important to know how to make tools and how to use them than to have tools you don't know how to use... but when I went for food, tools, then knowledge, I got it right and then understood the meaning behind the puzzle (and that I was originally overcomplicating it for myself.)


One would think the solution is obvious. Why are people having to even come here to ask?

[Anonymous Game Creator 2]

It's actually a decent point that a different object could have been used in place of the tools to represent "shelter" rather than "having to build shelter". That might have made the choice of having to find immediate shelter a bit more obvious. You hear the first two correct choices commonly lumped together in this order: Food & shelter.

Only problem is that a house might be a bit hard for Seran to conjure up as a selectable object on the island!

Also, Seran does say, "In the order of value lies your salvation..." but after that he says, "Choose first the item of greatest importance, and then the second, and so on". The latter line is intended to make it clearer that the items should be selected based on how important they are, rather than how valuable they are (since the word "value", as a synonym, can mean a few different things).