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 Post subject: Remake Comparisons
PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 4:16 am 
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Note: If there already is one of these threads, please feel free to lock/close/censor/remove/nuke this one.

Now that people are starting to finish the game, and since many of us have already long since played and finished Infamous Adventures' version of King's Quest 3, it is only inevitable that comparisons be made. I'm not posting any puzzle spoilers or anything, so have no fear of that. I'll give my two cents of the games, and invite others to do so. I'll go element by element.

Gwydion/Alexander: It was a tricky one. Both games do a good job, although IA makes him look well-dressed for a slave. Redux does a better job on the voice and clothes, although it is pretty much the same otherwise. The dialogue for Alexander in Daventry was much weaker in Redux than in IA, though. Redux still wins in my opinion, though, as the other dialogue was really good.

Mannanan: Each game handles him very differently. Redux portrays him in a manner closer to how the manual of the original described him, as a frail old man whose appearance of frailty ends when one sees his eyes. IA's version depicted him as a large, towering figure, appearing not only physically tall, but also magically powerful. While I kinda liked IA's version more, I have to give points to Redux for the more accurate depiction according to the manual.

There was one bit that IA did that I wish Redux had done. When Mannanan goes on a journey, it begs the question "Where does he go?" While there is no right or wrong answer (Shapeir?), IA shows Mannanan visit his brother Mordack in a cutscene located on Mordack's island, only referred to as "elsewhere." It was a chillingly good scene.

So, much as it is hard to decide, I just barely give this one to IA.

The 3-Headed Dragon: Redux wins this one both hands down, by far. IA's version looked like a pint-sized King Ghidorah, which, while dangerous, lacked the sort of kingdom-shattering menace required; IA's dragon was even smaller than the one-headed dragon from Sierra's remake of KQ1. Redux's dragon was huge, unique-looking, and gave the impression of extreme power. Redux gets this one both hands down.

Endgame: This part fell flat for me. The whole section after the dragon is dead but the game is still not done was sorta... lame. Between the seeming helplessness of the "father", the lucky charms gnome, the mooning bit from the original game that IA wisely left out, and the green pinball of salvation, the effect was less than stellar. Even so, if one suspends disbelief in the "pinball" sequence, it looks rather nice.

Still, IA gives the game a more balanced ending, no need to run an obstacle course, and shows that it took time for Daventry to rebuild, which strikes me as working much better than the pinball. IA wins this one. It almost makes one wish Alexander had stayed behind in Llewdor and become a benevolent wizard in some sort of "what-if" story.

Easter Eggs: Well done by IA, but VERY well done in Redux. I'm not giving these away.

Spells and Magic lab: IA did a good job with this, although the whole "you mix the ingredients" bit was rather quick. Redux gave a much better show of it. Also, the lab really gives off a hellish impression from above. I'm not sure if that was the intended effect, but it really does give the impression of Mannanan as a satanic figure, laboring away in a room of evil.

Cat Transformation Sequence: IA did a good job of it, but with Redux it was like... PWNED! Really well done, although I'm not sure the "fake choking" bit at the start was necessary.

Pirates: IA kept very close to formula with this, and while it was good, Redux did a fantastic job, although the island was a bit tricky. Still, once solves it, one solves it for good. Also, that first mate must still be in that town.

Time Limits: The original game and IA (if memory serves), placed time limits on a lot of things, notably, when Manannan would kill you, even if you had done nothing wrong. That those limits are gone in Redux is excellent. The warning timer is a novel and, in my opinion, excellent means of dealing with the limits here, although it seems to require repeated theft of the porridge (okay, minor spoiler). Good thing the bears keep making more bowls of it and they don't think to lock the door until after it no longer matters.

Oracle: Both IA's version and Redux do a good job, but I have to give this one to Redux, which approached the matter in an original way and made the Oracle into an even more mystical figure than IA did (or maybe even could, given their budget and smaller staff).

Introduction Sequence: Both of these are very similar. I don't know if there was any collaboration between IA and AGDI, but the similarities are pretty strong. Both were well done, and I can't say I know which one I liked more. Both begin with a sleeping Gwydion and an account of how Alexander was stolen from his real home, although both handle the specific differently. Redux's version is darker and colder, but IA establishes Mannanan as EVIL from the introduction onward. :eek

Medusa: Redux put a whole new spin on this part, while IA stayed more or less with the original. I liked Redux more, although I have to get the better ending with her. Will do so shortly.

Abominable Snowman: Redux wins this one hands down, although it is not too hard to figure out how to do it, given how few other options one has. IA kept straight with the formula. In the tunnel sequence, again, Redux wins, although it takes a moment to figure out which tunnel NOT to take. XD

Music: For the most part, the two games are even in the music department, although Redux does a very good job at referencing music from KQ2VGA+. I'll give this to Redux, but barely.

I will give IA one minor "win" though; the mountains in IA felt much more arctic, what with the snow effect and the greater sense of altitude in IA's version. Still, the Yeti and the tunnels were the crux of this part, so Redux wins it.

There's probably a lot more, but I'll just leave it as it is for now. I thought KQIIVGA+ was a better game, with a much more fleshed-out plot and a better setup. The whole "father" plot line just fizzled in Redux, although the game itself is very good. If I had to choose, I would say King's Quest III Redux was the better game of the two KQIII reamakes, despite a weak ending.


Last edited by Aristocles on Fri Feb 25, 2011 5:20 am, edited 5 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Remake Comparisons
PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 4:28 am 
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Quote:
When Mannanan goes on a journey, it begs the question "Where does he go?"


There wasn't an exact where given, but there was dialogue in the game suggesting why Mannanan kept going on all these journeys... Just pointing that out in case you didn't stumble over that. :)

Otherwise I can't compare, as I don't think I ever got around to playing the IA version.

The ending did feel a little bit weak in the Alexander-Rosella relations, and I have no idea what the robed guy was about at all. Is this an MoE reference? Never played it.


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 Post subject: Re: Remake Comparisons
PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 4:33 am 
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It's a KQ2+ reference. Go play AGDI's KQ2+.

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 Post subject: Re: Remake Comparisons
PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 4:33 am 
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hanakogames wrote:
Quote:
When Mannanan goes on a journey, it begs the question "Where does he go?"


There wasn't an exact where given, but there was dialogue in the game suggesting why Mannanan kept going on all these journeys... Just pointing that out in case you didn't stumble over that. :)

Otherwise I can't compare, as I don't think I ever got around to playing the IA version.

The ending did feel a little bit weak in the Alexander-Rosella relations, and I have no idea what the robed guy was about at all. Is this an MoE reference? Never played it.


The "why" isn't as important as "where" is, in my opinion. Was he going to sit around in a room with all the other wizards of the Black Cloak society? Was he going to see "Medusa"? His brother and/or sister? There was a "meanwhile" scene of Daventry, but nothing on Manannan's side. Maybe to take the cat to the vet? :rollin

If Mannanan was going to meet with other wizards, that would have been a great opportunity for plot exposition.

And the robed guy is almost certainly "the father" from Kings Quest II VGA+ made by AGDI as well.


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 Post subject: Re: Remake Comparisons
PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 5:39 am 
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There's an alternate way to deal with Medusa besides the obvious way?


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 Post subject: Re: Remake Comparisons
PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 5:41 am 
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Hey,thanks for all the compliments on our game. It's funny to look it now - we released it almost five years ago now.... and we were such a green team when we made it, but I think it still stands up pretty well. I'm very proud of what we did - and I'm glad a lot of people out there liked it too. We just wanted to make a game to entertain people, and to that end I think we succeded very well!

I love that AGDI made their version too, and kept it different enough to make it a new experience for people. Think about the fact that we live in a world where there's TWO remakes of a game from 1986.... over twenty years later, it's still popular enough to support two remakes. That's pretty cool, and I'm glad to have been a part of it all.

I know our game is going to draw comparisons, and honestly on some fronts there is no comparison - but I'm glad that people haven't been too harsh on ours in comparison.


Bt

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 Post subject: Re: Remake Comparisons
PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 6:08 am 
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Blackthorne519 wrote:
Hey,thanks for all the compliments on our game. It's funny to look it now - we released it almost five years ago now.... and we were such a green team when we made it, but I think it still stands up pretty well. I'm very proud of what we did - and I'm glad a lot of people out there liked it too. We just wanted to make a game to entertain people, and to that end I think we succeded very well!

I love that AGDI made their version too, and kept it different enough to make it a new experience for people. Think about the fact that we live in a world where there's TWO remakes of a game from 1986.... over twenty years later, it's still popular enough to support two remakes. That's pretty cool, and I'm glad to have been a part of it all.

I know our game is going to draw comparisons, and honestly on some fronts there is no comparison - but I'm glad that people haven't been too harsh on ours in comparison.


Bt


Your version has a much stronger ending, and a more menacing wizard. Something tells me IA wouldn't have gone for a magic pinball to fix Daventry. Seeing Alexander and Graham working to fix the kingdom was far more believable, even in a magic game. Much as I hate to say it, having a magic item with "whatever power the plot needs" to fix things magically at the end reminded me a lot of cheap anime. Years of well-drawn devastation fixed in ten seconds... hard to swallow that (although the pinball could be probably be swallowed, in a literal sense. XD)

The Redux, I think, does a lot of things better in terms of making the story deeper and adding new twists and turns, plus a number of good references/Easter eggs (no Shamir or Guybrush though), and better graphics. I would go into that part more, but artwork quality is a more subjective thing, and both versions clearly were up to VGA standards.

Here's to Kingdom of Sorrows! :)

P.S. More like THREE remakes, if Telltale games is rebooting the KQ series in a way that will remake each and every game. :D


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 Post subject: Re: Remake Comparisons
PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 6:55 am 
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I also kinda the way Medusa part was treated, again, with the similar reference with count Dracula in KQ2+. Wish there were more to it, the whole extra scene kinda wasted here. Maybe an extra story involving better ruling.

Funny thing was, I found this because I'm curious how Gwydion death upon seeing Medusa taken care here, and instead it never happened. And 'till this hours, I haven't seen him turned to stone (yet). :rollin

Anyway, I already almost forgot the IA version since I only finished it once.

One thing I need to add:

Event occurrence: While IA keeps more or less the same formula as in the original where you must switch screen back and forth until you get what you want, the Redux version simply removes the hassle (or keeps it very minimum, ex: checking the bandit). Everything must be triggered, thus eliminates the need to go back and forth between screen just to get what you want. The earliest example are when dealing with the chicken which you can never grab it unless you do something with it.


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 Post subject: Re: Remake Comparisons
PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 9:20 am 
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hanakogames wrote:
There wasn't an exact where given, but there was dialogue in the game suggesting why Mannanan kept going on all these journeys... Just pointing that out in case you didn't stumble over that. :)


Care to give me a clue as to when this occured? I guess I missed it, or didn't notice it.


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 Post subject: Re: Remake Comparisons
PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 11:41 am 
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Regarding the ending, the Father has The Item in his possession now. Sure, it's smashed to smithereens, but little is known about how powerful Morgeilen is, nor what kind of magic he possesses.

Is he really weak and defeated? Or could he simply snap his fingers and bring The Item into one piece again? This, you don't know yet. What players do know is that he now has possession of The Item, which he has sought for a millennium, ever since Leginimore died in the Grand War. Indeed, the whereabouts of The Item is precisely what he was trying to attain from Graham by asking for his crown in KQ2VGA+'s balcony scene during the Cloud Spirit tests.

Thirty years onward from the time when King's Quest III Redux takes place, the planetary alignment will occur, and this event will make The Ascension possible. At that moment, Leginimore's vast magical power will be bestowed upon the person who possesses the Item.


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 Post subject: Re: Remake Comparisons
PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 12:47 pm 
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Anonymous Game Creator 2 wrote:
Regarding the ending, the Father has The Item in his possession now. Sure, it's smashed to smithereens, but little is known about how powerful Morgeilen is, nor what kind of magic he possesses.

Is he really weak and defeated? Or could he simply snap his fingers and bring The Item into one piece again? This, you don't know yet. What players do know is that he now has possession of The Item, which he has sought for a millennium, ever since Leginimore died in the Grand War. Indeed, the whereabouts of The Item is precisely what he was trying to attain from Graham by asking for his crown in KQ2VGA+'s balcony scene during the Cloud Spirit tests.

Thirty years onward from the time when King's Quest III Redux takes place, the planetary alignment will occur, and this event will make The Ascension possible. At that moment, Leginimore's vast magical power will be bestowed upon the person who possesses the Item.


So... fan sequel? What's the legality on that (for you guys at least)?

Maybe Alexander or Rosella could become middle-aged adventurers like their parents, or maybe you could play as one of their children? Either way, it sounds pretty damn interesting.


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 Post subject: Re: Remake Comparisons
PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 12:52 pm 
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We're still trying to determine whether we'll be able to do something along those lines. Be sure to vote in our new "Future Remakes" poll to voice your opinion:

viewtopic.php?f=32&t=14920


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 Post subject: Re: Remake Comparisons
PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 1:00 pm 
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Have done. And I'll send Activision an email, as well!


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 Post subject: Re: Remake Comparisons
PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 1:27 pm 
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So... the great magic treasure that took 1000 years to find was a green "fix-everything" pinball that one could find by solving puzzles? And it was smashed to bits, but when it was still whole, it could have been taken by the "father" from Alexander, who had the item on his person, and was standing right in front of the scary black-cloaked man.


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 Post subject: Re: Remake Comparisons
PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 2:07 pm 
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Quote:
So... the great magic treasure that took 1000 years to find was a green "fix-everything" pinball that one could find by solving puzzles? And it was smashed to bits, but when it was still whole, it could have been taken by the "father" from Alexander, who had the item on his person, and was standing right in front of the scary black-cloaked man.


No, "The Item" (the statuette) was something that the Father already hinted at in KQ2+. It was essentially something he required to "inherit" the power of Daventry's First King.

The healing orb (or magic pinball as you called it) was one of the treasures created by the First King (along with the three treasures from KQ1) to aid the land and Seran calls that orb a treasure due to its abilities. Seran doesn't know what the statuette is for.

Neither did the Father, btw. The reason the Father tried to get Graham killed and take over his crown was because the crown acted as a magical compass to find "The Item". So yes, The Father could have taken the item from Alexander, if he knew Alex was carrying the thing he was looking for. But nobody knew the nature of the statuette until the crown revealed it.

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 Post subject: Re: Remake Comparisons
PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 2:14 pm 
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Seran explains that the Green Orb was created by the First Mage, Leginimor, and that it's "An Orb of power to aid the land in crisis". This orb is just one of several artifacts that Daventry's First King created, and stands as a testament to the immense magical power he possessed (it's rumoured that the first Mages are not from earth, but descended to this planet from the Heavens. They are immortal, but took human form. Both Legionnaire and his brother Morgeilan - The Father - are First Mages.).

The Item is the stone statuette of the cupped hands that you find beneath the coins in the treasure chest. It's completely possible to skip collecting The Item in the game, which changes the ending sequence somewhat (but keeps the "orb healing the earth" sequence). The Item, as explained by Seran, is a stone vessel that was buried with Leginimor's body when he died. The cupped hands replaced Leginimor's own hands (or perhaps they ARE the petrified remains of his hands). As a living pirate, Seran robbed Leginimor's grave and stole The Item in the process. As a curse for taking it, he is doomed to that glade on Treasure Island until someone came along and claimed the treasure who could use it to do good. When Alexander does this, he takes the Orb and The Item into his possession and releases Seran to the afterlife.

You can actually try to give The Item to the Father in the clearing in Daventry. It would appear that Morgeilen does not have the ability to detect items that a person is carrying.

It can take a few playthroughs of both Romancing the Stones and King's Quest III Redux to get all the links for the Father and Leginimor and how they tie together to form the entire back-story of both games (and even the events that occurred before the games). One site that has done a very good job at arranging the timeline and historical events of our King's Quest 2 remake, is the King's Quest Omipedia wiki:

http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/Romanc ... s_Timeline

--EDIT--
Beaten to the punch by Erpy!


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 Post subject: Re: Remake Comparisons
PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 2:40 pm 
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@Aristocles- You didn't compare the voice acting of the minor characters. AGDI wins this hands down, no contest. In the IA version, the voice acting for the barmaid is flat, the storekeeper is repetitive and the Guybrush cameo sounds nowhere near anything close to Dominic Armato. Also, the mouth syncing with the voices isn't exactly right at times (if present at all, I don't remember.) I recall playing IA's KQ3 and becoming aware that at times Gwydion would stop moving his mouth before he stopped talking. The AGDI version has perfect voice syncing.

Also:
  • In the AGDI version, you can have new extended conversations with minor characters (including talking to Manannan after he eats), fleshing them out more and giving the game more depth.
  • The end of Redux gives reward titles, promoting lots of replay value.
  • I thought the "on his right... buttock" bit was great; I like Alexander's reaction.
  • Redux adds more information about previous servants Manannan has had. It evoked emotion in me to read the journal of a boy who is now long dead- writing his story to someone, he knows not who, which turns out to be his successor and also a boy of his same age, called by the same name, and in the same predicament. However as it turns out, the former slave's efforts to hide the solution to his one hope at freedom becomes a stumbling block for Alexander (at least, it was for me.)
  • Redux gives reason to why Manannan specifically chose Alexander to abduct. In the original game and IA's remake, it just seems like rotten luck for Daventry, but in this game it's deliberate.
  • While I admit that the sprite animation of the orb itself was a bit lacking (ie. a ball flying through the air and hitting stuff,) it gives a happy ending to KQ3, rather than one that is confusingly bittersweet concerning the state the land is in at the end of IA's remake.
  • Redux requires a more complicated method of getting into the labratory; a puzzle which makes sense as Manannan would probably try to make it exceptionally difficult for (any) Gwydion to get in there even if he did find the switch for the trapdoor.
  • Redux's sprite animation for turning into an eagle is better than IA's. I noticed this while dropping the spider into the sea.
  • Redux's spellcasting method is better. In KQ6, when you mouse over a spell in the spellbook, the "cast" cursor is orange; in IA's KQ3 it is grey, which is a different color than the other cursors one is used to seeing and at first made me wonder if it was greyed-out like I needed to do something else first. You don't though: you just click "cast" and the game does all the work; the fact that the cast cursor in IA's is grey is just unfortunately misleading. I like Redux's method here. It not only requires work and thought, but makes perfect sense.
  • I didn't think the after-the-dragon part of the game was bad at all. You get to talk to your sister about your family, ask her why she shushed you in front of the gnome, and more.
  • Redux gives a bit more time for the family to reunite with each other before throwing the hat.
  • The Father's visible anger at seeing the Item made me wonder if that was the exact moment of Graham's heart attack.


Last edited by Chyron_8472 on Fri Feb 25, 2011 3:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Remake Comparisons
PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 2:52 pm 
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Quote:
The end of Redux gives reward titles, promoting lots of replay value. I thought the "on his left buttock" bit was great; I like Alexander's reaction.


I remember threads on another forum where many people (I wouldn't be surprised if many of them were female :p) actually wanted the birthmark scene in there. But I guess most guys didn't think much of that moment.

Quote:
While I admit that sprite animation of the orb itself was a bit lacking (ie. a ball flying through the air and hitting stuff,) it gives a happy ending to KQ3, rather than one that is confusingly bittersweet concerning the state the land is in at the end of IA's remake.


I agree, the orb's animation would probably have benefitted from having an aura of sorts and its flight could have slightly more arcing...which unfortunately is not easy to do.

The restoration scene, btw, was I think added to explain why Daventry was lush and green again a mere year after it stopped being a burning wasteland.

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 Post subject: Re: Remake Comparisons
PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 3:02 pm 
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Erpy wrote:
The restoration scene, btw, was I think added to explain why Daventry was lush and green again a mere year after it stopped being a burning wasteland.


I know. I very much appreciate this.


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 Post subject: Re: Remake Comparisons
PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 3:02 pm 
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ProgZmax did some nice examples of arcing snowballs with AGS in his game Bluecup Dreams. He used structs, if I recall.


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 Post subject: Re: Remake Comparisons
PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 3:05 pm 
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MusicallyInspired wrote:
It's a KQ2+ reference. Go play AGDI's KQ2+.


I have, but it's been a long time, and obviously the information has fallen out of my brain. Ah, well, it's been long enough to play it again, then!

Quote:
Care to give me a clue as to when this occured? I guess I missed it, or didn't notice it.


Chattering animals somewhere. Either birds or squirrels I think? But my memory is full of holes...


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 Post subject: Re: Remake Comparisons
PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 3:34 pm 
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huh... I missed the so-called Item. Might have to retrace back though. :\


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 Post subject: Re: Remake Comparisons
PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 6:59 pm 
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I don't see how. The Item makes Graham's crown flash at the end of the game. You didn't get that scene?


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 Post subject: Re: Remake Comparisons
PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 7:24 pm 
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Nope. Which is weird, when I grab that green orb from the chest, I didn't see anything weird. :\


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 Post subject: Re: Remake Comparisons
PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 7:28 pm 
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The Item is not the green orb, it's something else.

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