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 Post subject: Mapping LLewdor
PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 7:46 am 
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In drawing up a map of LLewdor, I noticed that moving EAST->WEST (left -> right) from the screen with the hole (north of the Bard) to the Spider Screen passes through the Waterfall Screen, but never crossed that path. However, moving NORTH -> SOUTH the path down the mountain is continuous. At first it seems that the Waterfall Screen actually tunnels under the path...
So why when Gwydion changes to an eagle and flies to the left of the Mansion he goes to the screen with the Bard??? Or when he flies to the right he goes to the Spider screen??? Or when flying up the mountain he goes to the screen with the Bard??? Or if he flies over the Mansion he still goes to the screen with the Bard??? He never flies into the screen with the other eagle!!!
Is the path vertically up with the Mansion in the sky???...
Also some adjacent screens match exactly (e.g. the Path Screen -> Bard Screen) but others have different perspectives (e.g. the shoreline)...

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 Post subject: Re: Mapping LLewdor
PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 6:31 pm 
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Uh...yeah, it's a mountain, dude.

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 Post subject: Re: Mapping LLewdor
PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 11:04 pm 
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MusicallyInspired wrote:
Uh...yeah, it's a mountain, dude.

But a mountain should have a base which takes up space! Unless it floats above the countryside with a single vertical path like stairs... Maybe it is not the intent of the designers but how do you explain flying off the mountain in all three directions (left, down and over the mansion) taking you to the screen with the Hole and the other (right) one takes you to a screen with the Spider. But walking from the Hole to the Spider must pass through the waterfall screen. The waterfall screen seems to be exactly under the path but walking up the path and flying down behaves like there is no horizontal extent in the path...
Incidentally when the eagle drops off the mountain from the path it still ends up by the Hole...

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 Post subject: Re: Mapping LLewdor
PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 11:41 pm 
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Oh, when you turn yourself into an eagle you mean. That might be a bug. Erpy would know for sure.

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 Post subject: Re: Mapping LLewdor
PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 12:28 am 
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It's done on purpose. When you become an eagle in the top of the mountain, you skip some screens in your way down.

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 Post subject: Re: Mapping LLewdor
PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 1:27 am 
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There you go..

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 Post subject: Re: Mapping LLewdor
PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 8:52 am 
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DrJones wrote:
It's done on purpose. When you become an eagle in the top of the mountain, you skip some screens in your way down.

I understand that (about the shortcut award) but what I am saying is that design intent, it was as if the mansion was floating above the countryside with ONLY vertical connections to it (using the path) or flying down as an eagle. Even if you dont use the eagle moving North -> South from the base of the mountain takes a path, but moving East to West -> from the HOLE screen to the SPIDER screen passes through the waterfall.


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 Post subject: Re: Mapping LLewdor
PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2011 10:46 pm 
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Mananan is a wizard y'know !

ANd that picture is pretty much hurting my eyes


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 Post subject: Re: Mapping LLewdor
PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2011 6:58 am 
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ARSENAL6A wrote:
Mananan is a wizard y'know !
ANd that picture is pretty much hurting my eyes

Sorry about your eyes...
In this pix I have placed the screens Gwydion passes through when walking from North<-> South (left) and East<-> West (right) next to each other. I am saying that the waterfall screen and one of the path screens overlap because they are in different vertical planes i.e. the mansion floats above the countryside and the spiral path is the 'stairs' to get to the mansion when walking...
Obviously that kind of magic requires a powerful wizard...


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 Post subject: Re: Mapping LLewdor
PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2011 11:35 am 
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Your analysis seems to assume that each "screen" should be considered an equal amount of space with an exact spatial relationship to the adjacent screens. I don't think the game (or any other similar game) is designed in such a rational manner to imply that you should make these assumptions. For all Sierra (and Sierra-type adventure games) games, I think it's safe to assume a general, but not exact, spatial relationship between screens. In fact, at times I would assume quite the opposite--that not all screens depict the same amount of space and that there are locations in Llewdor that we, as gamers, never see at all because they are not relevant. Take the town, for example. What town could function with only a tavern and a store? Who does the store sell to if the only other person in the community is the bartender? Where do these people live? I think the implication is that there are other people and structures in the town, but since they aren't relevant to the game, we aren't shown them. Mannanan's house is another good one--it occupies one screen on the exterior, but four screens on the interior ground floor. Yet, what would be the point of adding a bunch of screens to make the grounds around the house bigger, when the only game-relevant activity outside the house is feeding the chickens to get afeather? When it comes to the mountain, I would assume that Gwydion's walk around the mountain is a lot longer than its actually shown. Imagine how tedious it would be to force us to walk him through many more screens where there is nothing to do only to establish a rational spatial relationship. The way it's done makes more sense and we can imagine that a longer, more realistic walk is taking place "off screen." So the waterfall isn't underneath the mountain, but rather on the north side of it.


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 Post subject: Re: Mapping LLewdor
PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2011 10:19 pm 
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ww_adh wrote:
Your analysis seems to assume that each "screen" should be considered an equal amount of space with an exact spatial relationship to the adjacent screens. I don't think the game (or any other similar game) is designed in such a rational manner to imply that you should make these assumptions. For all Sierra (and Sierra-type adventure games) games, I think it's safe to assume a general, but not exact, spatial relationship between screens. In fact, at times I would assume quite the opposite--that not all screens depict the same amount of space and that there are locations in Llewdor that we, as gamers, never see at all because they are not relevant. Take the town, for example. What town could function with only a tavern and a store? Who does the store sell to if the only other person in the community is the bartender? Where do these people live? I think the implication is that there are other people and structures in the town, but since they aren't relevant to the game, we aren't shown them. Mannanan's house is another good one--it occupies one screen on the exterior, but four screens on the interior ground floor. Yet, what would be the point of adding a bunch of screens to make the grounds around the house bigger, when the only game-relevant activity outside the house is feeding the chickens to get afeather? When it comes to the mountain, I would assume that Gwydion's walk around the mountain is a lot longer than its actually shown. Imagine how tedious it would be to force us to walk him through many more screens where there is nothing to do only to establish a rational spatial relationship. The way it's done makes more sense and we can imagine that a longer, more realistic walk is taking place "off screen." So the waterfall isn't underneath the mountain, but rather on the north side of it.

Your post makes a lot of sense and I had considered most of them...
The point I was making was if you join all the screens East <-> West from the screen with the hole to spider screen, it looks like one big canvas with all the screen edges fitting exactly and precisely! It was this fit and also the fit of some others adjacent screens in the town that startled me... There is no such fit in moving North <-> South (and before this creates tangential responses, I understand that it would be impossible to get the correct perspective with usable scenes if this was done.) In moving north from the Behr’s the path simply ignores the waterfall screen (whether or not it is behind the mountain is another issue.)
Believe it or not, the town (with buildings) is split into two scenes or screens that connect to those on the left and right as if they were one (and again for better gameplay I understand this.)
I can't ever remember playing a game where adjacent screens of such intricate artwork connected in this way...
Even though I accept your arguments I prefer to think about the castle floating above the countryside with a spiral path to climb to it. Please allow me to make an egocentric interpretation of the Llewedor... even if it was not intended by the creators...

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 Post subject: Re: Mapping LLewdor
PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 2:02 am 
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Well, the man is a wizard, so why not! That's a good observation about how well the backdrops fit together. They are quite beautifully rendered. I read something about how they got a special artist to work on them.


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