"Colonel's Bequest Remake"
Moderators: adeyke, VampD3, eriqchang, Angelus3K
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AsianMusicGuy
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Thanks Laur for your suggestions. You definitely brought up some interesting ideas that I hadn't thought of. And I searched over the internet for more cynical reviews of the game, to see the game for it's weaknesses, and never found that article. So thank you again. Without giving too much away, we are addressing a good number if not all of the points you brought up. And we are planning on revamping CB, within good reason. But, if it's one thing I learned from this forum, it's that fans of the game are alot more loyal to the original material then I would have guessed.Laur wrote:I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with those who feel that the story and characters are "perfect" or "complex."
In short, the story and characters should be expanded, A LOT. Make us care about them, so that when they start turning up dead, we are genuinely sorry. However, AGDI got away with completely redesigning & expanding KQ2, so as long as you do a good job you should be fine.
Some additional gameplay suggestions:
- Eliminate all the random events, i.e. elevator location (sometimes it's there, sometimes its not), body & item location (make them always turn up in the same place at the same time).
- Eliminate the "mysterious figure" who pops out and kills you at some points.
- Fix as many logic problems as possible (many are due to sloppy scripting).
- I don't think the whole "Acts" thing really works all that well. Did anyone actually feel like they were in a play? I'd scrap it and find a better way.
- The whole time/clock thing being triggered by events is also really awkward, or maybe it's just how it is scripted.
And thanks to Blackthorne519 as well for your insight into the game. I've been a fan since it's release and never knew all of that background information. This will be an interesting process, trying to make a game that people want to see different versions of... Heh.
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Dragonrose
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The thing with your first point is that the random events, such as the elevator, AREN'T random. When the elevator has moved, we know that Henri has gone somewhere else.Laur wrote:I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with those who feel that the story and characters are "perfect" or "complex."
In short, the story and characters should be expanded, A LOT. Make us care about them, so that when they start turning up dead, we are genuinely sorry. However, AGDI got away with completely redesigning & expanding KQ2, so as long as you do a good job you should be fine.
Some additional gameplay suggestions:
- Eliminate all the random events, i.e. elevator location (sometimes it's there, sometimes its not), body & item location (make them always turn up in the same place at the same time).
- Eliminate the "mysterious figure" who pops out and kills you at some points.
- Fix as many logic problems as possible (many are due to sloppy scripting).
- I don't think the whole "Acts" thing really works all that well. Did anyone actually feel like they were in a play? I'd scrap it and find a better way.
- The whole time/clock thing being triggered by events is also really awkward, or maybe it's just how it is scripted.
I agree with the freaking mysterious figure. It's too easy to die in that game!
The acts/clock thing, IMHO, does work quite well. People don't move around until the next 15 minute block. 4 blocks makes one act. The same sort of idea is used in Gabriel Knight 3: certain events trigger other events, but until that trigger occurs everyone is in stasis so you can find things.
Sorry if I'm not making much sense. It's VERY early in the morning for me.
What I mean to say, Laur, and I think most everybody else means to say this too, is that the story itself and the relationships are perfect. Like I said, everybody has their own separate motivation for wanting Dijon's money and could be suspected of killing to do it. However, all of that is explained to you in the manual. What the hell good is a game that only explains things to you in the manual??? I mean, I'm a big advocate of having a manual that's worth reading and is its own treasure (i.e. KQ6 manual), but if you're just going to substitute your manual for a libretto on the action, that's lazy game-making.
All the story is there, you just have to make the game tell that story. You don't need to re-invent the wheel. It's all laid out there for you. You just need to switch from a stone wheel to a rubber wheel.
If you just improve the gameplay, better integrate the act cycles, make it easier to keep track of the progressing plotline (like Amon Ra did beautifully), then you've got yourself a top-notch game. Where this game will suffer is with you trying to add to the plot that's already drowning in confusion.
All the story is there, you just have to make the game tell that story. You don't need to re-invent the wheel. It's all laid out there for you. You just need to switch from a stone wheel to a rubber wheel.
If you just improve the gameplay, better integrate the act cycles, make it easier to keep track of the progressing plotline (like Amon Ra did beautifully), then you've got yourself a top-notch game. Where this game will suffer is with you trying to add to the plot that's already drowning in confusion.
BT - thanks for the reply, your post was much more informative than your previous two sentences. While I understand that what your saying may be some of the design process behind CB, I just happen to disagree that the game does any of this very effectively. I'm sure I could also write a detailed paper explaining why, but I also lack the time and inclination. I am still curious as to your response to my second question, would the game be made worse if the characters were given more depth?
Dragonrose - I seem to remember that in the same timeblock, sometimes the elevator would be available, sometimes not, or sometimes it would be upstairs, or sometimes down. Maybe I'm mis-remembering. Regarding my Acts comment, the 15 minute time blocks work okay, I just didn't really feel like the whole "theatrical" angle was really very well explored. Calling every 4 time blocks an "Act" does not a play make. I'd either improve it, or just scrap it, but that's just my opinion.
I'd like to clarify my comment on events. I agree with having triggered events, I just feel that the events should be triggered by the player actually DOING something (i.e. clicking on something). Having events and timeblocks be triggered just by walking into a room is very bad, and limits the free exploration which is such a vital component of adventure games.
Kurdt - I agree that incorporating all of the manual exposition and back-story into the game proper would go a long way. I also agree that the base story and the character relationships are pretty good, it is just my opinion that the game could be improved by expanding the characters beyond their simple stereotypes, making them seem more like real people. I think there's great potential here, it's just not fully realized. Again, just my opinion.
Dump401 - I think if you want some good ideas on how best to improve the game, look no further than Sierra themselves. Pay close attention to all the things that were changed in Laura Bow II (such as adding some COMEDY, a Sierra staple that is sadly lacking in CB), and make corresponding changes to CB. Of course, I'm sure you've thought of this already. Again, good luck! I am looking forward to playing your remake, sounds like you guys are on the right track!
Laur
Dragonrose - I seem to remember that in the same timeblock, sometimes the elevator would be available, sometimes not, or sometimes it would be upstairs, or sometimes down. Maybe I'm mis-remembering. Regarding my Acts comment, the 15 minute time blocks work okay, I just didn't really feel like the whole "theatrical" angle was really very well explored. Calling every 4 time blocks an "Act" does not a play make. I'd either improve it, or just scrap it, but that's just my opinion.
I'd like to clarify my comment on events. I agree with having triggered events, I just feel that the events should be triggered by the player actually DOING something (i.e. clicking on something). Having events and timeblocks be triggered just by walking into a room is very bad, and limits the free exploration which is such a vital component of adventure games.
Kurdt - I agree that incorporating all of the manual exposition and back-story into the game proper would go a long way. I also agree that the base story and the character relationships are pretty good, it is just my opinion that the game could be improved by expanding the characters beyond their simple stereotypes, making them seem more like real people. I think there's great potential here, it's just not fully realized. Again, just my opinion.
Dump401 - I think if you want some good ideas on how best to improve the game, look no further than Sierra themselves. Pay close attention to all the things that were changed in Laura Bow II (such as adding some COMEDY, a Sierra staple that is sadly lacking in CB), and make corresponding changes to CB. Of course, I'm sure you've thought of this already. Again, good luck! I am looking forward to playing your remake, sounds like you guys are on the right track!
Laur
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Blackthorne519
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It wouldn't BE the Colonel's Bequest, then. I'd say if you wanted characters with more depth, create your own game.
Here you go....
A retired Congressman invites his family up to his secluded mountain mansion. A storm washes out the bridge at the base of the mountain, effectively cutting off travel for the evening. Slowly they all die.
There - you can create your own characters with depth and personality, and not step all over someone's intellectual property.
Bt
Here you go....
A retired Congressman invites his family up to his secluded mountain mansion. A storm washes out the bridge at the base of the mountain, effectively cutting off travel for the evening. Slowly they all die.
There - you can create your own characters with depth and personality, and not step all over someone's intellectual property.
Bt
You see, Bt and Laur, I don't think you're right. While yes, they are archetypical characters (the Corrupt Businessman, the Amoral Doctor, the Prima Donna Actress, the Sexy French Maid, etc.), I'd say they're far from one-dimensional. Like I said, they all have tremendous depth to them as well as a myriad of secrets, dealings, and motivations. However, you never find out about them in-game, or if you do you just stumble upon it accidentally and don't understand it when you do because you fail to see the big picture.
If the mechanics of the game led to an easier discovery and piecing together of clues as well as provided organic fluid ways to provide exposition, the characters' depth would present itself without you having to do anything different. You don't need to make up new motivations for Gloria Swansong's bitchiness or Rudy's power-lust. It's all there. All you have to do is integrate and expose it.
If the mechanics of the game led to an easier discovery and piecing together of clues as well as provided organic fluid ways to provide exposition, the characters' depth would present itself without you having to do anything different. You don't need to make up new motivations for Gloria Swansong's bitchiness or Rudy's power-lust. It's all there. All you have to do is integrate and expose it.
That's exactly what Dump401 and his team are doing, creating their own game. As he says in the first post, this is their interpretation of the Colonel's Bequest, they aren't trying to necessarily create the exact same game over again. If you want to play the honest-to-goodness Colonel's Bequest, it exists right now, and you can play it anytime you like. Heck, play it through FreeSCI and you can even get slightly better graphics.Blackthorne519 wrote:It wouldn't BE the Colonel's Bequest, then. I'd say if you wanted characters with more depth, create your own game.
For comparison, I thought KQ1VGA looked nice, but when it came down to it, it was the same game I played on the PCjr as a kid in the '80s. KQ2+VGA, however, was an entirely new game to me, and a great deal more fun for that. Perhaps you think KQ2+VGA was a terrible game because it is not a slavish recreation of the original, or that AGDI "stepped all over someone's intellectual property" for no good reason. Me, I'm excited to see what Dump401 comes up with.
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Blackthorne519
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Yes, part of me believes that AGDI did step all over someone's intellectual property with KQII+. But, in fairness to them, KQII did have a bare bones plot. It was a treasure hunt to find a chick at the end.
The Colonel's Bequest has a rich and intriguing plot already, and a colorful cast of characters who already have interactions with each other, as Kurdt says. He's right to say that one must look at the game from a large scope.
I don't think you really know all that much about 'The Colonel's Bequest'. The game, in it's form now, is fine. If one believes that the story is lacking, well - they'll have to deal. Or make their own game.
I didn't go back to "Casablanca" and cut in a few new scenes to show Rick plowing Ilsa like she was a snowbank, so they I could give her solid motivation for wanting him. I mean, after all, if you KNOW a guy's good in the sack, it just makes more sense for her to really want him. So when he makes her go with Lazlo, it makes him all the more of a good guy. Even though he rocks her world, he lets her go because he really loves her. Oh, yeah, and it totally says that to her while he's doing her in my version. You know, just so it's clear.
Bt
The Colonel's Bequest has a rich and intriguing plot already, and a colorful cast of characters who already have interactions with each other, as Kurdt says. He's right to say that one must look at the game from a large scope.
I don't think you really know all that much about 'The Colonel's Bequest'. The game, in it's form now, is fine. If one believes that the story is lacking, well - they'll have to deal. Or make their own game.
I didn't go back to "Casablanca" and cut in a few new scenes to show Rick plowing Ilsa like she was a snowbank, so they I could give her solid motivation for wanting him. I mean, after all, if you KNOW a guy's good in the sack, it just makes more sense for her to really want him. So when he makes her go with Lazlo, it makes him all the more of a good guy. Even though he rocks her world, he lets her go because he really loves her. Oh, yeah, and it totally says that to her while he's doing her in my version. You know, just so it's clear.
Bt
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AsianMusicGuy
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I think CB has superb atmosphere. The music, sound effects, graphics, and writing combine to make it quite an intense game. It's downright scary when played late at night. So I have no complaints there.
However, I really don't think the gameplay is very good. A major problem, in my eyes, is that the story is completely passive. In almost all cases, you advance the plot merely by being somewhere. You need a grand total of 4 typed actions to complete the game, or another 4 if you want the good ending.
Now, this doesn't mean there isn't a lot to do in the game. There are a whole lot of possible actions, and even a whole lot of meaningful ones. However, none of them affect the plot; they only reveal it. In fact, aside from the very, very end of the game, the player doesn't really interact with the plot. And, while there are deaths in the game, they're all random ones unrelated to the plot. In this sense, the play analogy isn't that bad; you're just watching something, not playing it.
The player can do a lot of observing in the game. A lot of things should be examined, taken, discussed, smelled, etc. This is the sort of stuff that fills up the notebook and gives you a higher "score" in the end. However, the automatic plot advancement turns out to be a problem here. To get the all the observations, you have to look at everything in every time block to see what changed. However, by doing that, you'll accidentally trigger one of the things that advances the time, making you miss some important things. This means that you have to try to avoid those events until you want them. And since "winning" the game really means having a complete notebook, you have to replay the game to make sure you're not missing anything. Meh.
I think one of the biggest problems, though, is the corpses. The game is all about the murders, and discovering a body is a major event. However, they're also huge plot holes. The corpses are always there for you to see, but as soon as you leave the area and return, they're gone, even if you're currently standing in the only exit to the area. It just makes no sense at all.
As for the characters, my main problem is the lack of interaction. They do all sorts of things that you can watch, and they have all sorts of interesting conversations you can listen to. They'll even say things to you if you ask them. However, you can't actually really talk to them. They're characters in a play, not actual people. If you tell one of them about a murder, they'll go to check it out, but since the corpse is already gone (see above paragraph), they'll think you're just kidding them. Even after half the cast is dead, you can't explaint how dire the situation really is. And you can't really talk with Lillian at all, despite her being Laura's best friend. I realize that a lot of this is essential to the plot, but it really hurts the characters' believability.
I'm not sure how these points could be addressed without fundamentally changing the game (the result would likely be unrecognizeable as CB), but I simply don't agree that the game is already perfect.
However, I really don't think the gameplay is very good. A major problem, in my eyes, is that the story is completely passive. In almost all cases, you advance the plot merely by being somewhere. You need a grand total of 4 typed actions to complete the game, or another 4 if you want the good ending.
Now, this doesn't mean there isn't a lot to do in the game. There are a whole lot of possible actions, and even a whole lot of meaningful ones. However, none of them affect the plot; they only reveal it. In fact, aside from the very, very end of the game, the player doesn't really interact with the plot. And, while there are deaths in the game, they're all random ones unrelated to the plot. In this sense, the play analogy isn't that bad; you're just watching something, not playing it.
The player can do a lot of observing in the game. A lot of things should be examined, taken, discussed, smelled, etc. This is the sort of stuff that fills up the notebook and gives you a higher "score" in the end. However, the automatic plot advancement turns out to be a problem here. To get the all the observations, you have to look at everything in every time block to see what changed. However, by doing that, you'll accidentally trigger one of the things that advances the time, making you miss some important things. This means that you have to try to avoid those events until you want them. And since "winning" the game really means having a complete notebook, you have to replay the game to make sure you're not missing anything. Meh.
I think one of the biggest problems, though, is the corpses. The game is all about the murders, and discovering a body is a major event. However, they're also huge plot holes. The corpses are always there for you to see, but as soon as you leave the area and return, they're gone, even if you're currently standing in the only exit to the area. It just makes no sense at all.
As for the characters, my main problem is the lack of interaction. They do all sorts of things that you can watch, and they have all sorts of interesting conversations you can listen to. They'll even say things to you if you ask them. However, you can't actually really talk to them. They're characters in a play, not actual people. If you tell one of them about a murder, they'll go to check it out, but since the corpse is already gone (see above paragraph), they'll think you're just kidding them. Even after half the cast is dead, you can't explaint how dire the situation really is. And you can't really talk with Lillian at all, despite her being Laura's best friend. I realize that a lot of this is essential to the plot, but it really hurts the characters' believability.
I'm not sure how these points could be addressed without fundamentally changing the game (the result would likely be unrecognizeable as CB), but I simply don't agree that the game is already perfect.
This is what I keep typing about and retyping about and RETYPING about. You hit it on the head, adeyke. It's a wonderfully atmospheric game with interesting characters, but you could try you damndest to figure that all out and you'd still get nowhere because the gameplay is a complete general failure. If I were Dump401, this would be the ONLY thing I would change.
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Blackthorne519
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I agree that the event triggering and the corpses are poorer elements. However, I always assumed that the killer just moved them.
Perhaps having the game unfold in real fifteen minute increments would be more interesting. You'd have to hustle and see what you needed to in the allotted time.
As for the characters being "in a play", I would say that was the intent of the game, considering that's how the introduction works.
Bt
Perhaps having the game unfold in real fifteen minute increments would be more interesting. You'd have to hustle and see what you needed to in the allotted time.
As for the characters being "in a play", I would say that was the intent of the game, considering that's how the introduction works.
Bt
I love that I made this forum. Just when I think it's dead, it suddenly revives with a surge of energy!
I want to thank everyone for commenting their ideas for the remake. And just to let you know, even with the strong opposing views, I am making note of everything. So don't feel that you are retyping a point in vain. I came into this project as nothing more than a fan with some ideas on remaking one of my favorite games. But reading your responses further emphasizes several points I wanted to address, and cancelled out some ideas I went a little too far with. So thank you.
And just to clarify, if I compared our interpretation of the game to AGDI's KQ2+, I didn't mean for it to be taken as literally as saying the whole game was going to be changed beyond belief. I just meant we want to take the good from the game and work with elements that weren't as favorable.
And as for the character development, I hear both sides of the arguement. I am not trying to make these characters different from who they were in the Sierra version. Laura isn't going to be some Lara Croft-type in her spare time, that likes to rescue kittens and fight crime. If anything, I'm going to take their personality types and have some fun with developing their characters a little more.
But at the end of the day, I don't believe that anyone of the people that died wouldn't have killed the Colonel for his money. So, by developing them I don't intend for them to be friendly, talkative people discussing their bad childhoods and shady relationships.
And we are looking into ways to mix up the gameplay that will address the issues that have been broughten up.
I just want to thank you all again for your input. While we work on the graphics, and have a basic directional outline for the game, we don't have alot of people to fully flesh out the story just yet. So you all are truly a big help. But, I was just wondering if any of you could help me out with something. I've tried to put "job personals" over in the "AGS" and "Adventure Developers" Forums, but haven't received too much response. Do you guys know of a good place to recruit people for projects? Or if you might know of anyone that is interested in helping out, have them write me an email at Dump401@yahoo.com
Thanks!
I want to thank everyone for commenting their ideas for the remake. And just to let you know, even with the strong opposing views, I am making note of everything. So don't feel that you are retyping a point in vain. I came into this project as nothing more than a fan with some ideas on remaking one of my favorite games. But reading your responses further emphasizes several points I wanted to address, and cancelled out some ideas I went a little too far with. So thank you.
And just to clarify, if I compared our interpretation of the game to AGDI's KQ2+, I didn't mean for it to be taken as literally as saying the whole game was going to be changed beyond belief. I just meant we want to take the good from the game and work with elements that weren't as favorable.
And as for the character development, I hear both sides of the arguement. I am not trying to make these characters different from who they were in the Sierra version. Laura isn't going to be some Lara Croft-type in her spare time, that likes to rescue kittens and fight crime. If anything, I'm going to take their personality types and have some fun with developing their characters a little more.
But at the end of the day, I don't believe that anyone of the people that died wouldn't have killed the Colonel for his money. So, by developing them I don't intend for them to be friendly, talkative people discussing their bad childhoods and shady relationships.
And we are looking into ways to mix up the gameplay that will address the issues that have been broughten up.
I just want to thank you all again for your input. While we work on the graphics, and have a basic directional outline for the game, we don't have alot of people to fully flesh out the story just yet. So you all are truly a big help. But, I was just wondering if any of you could help me out with something. I've tried to put "job personals" over in the "AGS" and "Adventure Developers" Forums, but haven't received too much response. Do you guys know of a good place to recruit people for projects? Or if you might know of anyone that is interested in helping out, have them write me an email at Dump401@yahoo.com
Thanks!
Sorry about the late response. The game is still in very early development stages. And I'm afraid that since I'm more of the artistic mind than the group leader type, that the game went into hiatus for a bit and most of the members I had, scattered. But I am picking the game back up as a New Year's Resolution and looking for new members to help out. So, anyone interested send me an email to Dump401@yahoo.com.
But as a long-winded answer, No, we don't have a website up yet. But to somehow tide you over for now, I have a couple pictures I've been working on. The screenshot was thrown together to sort of show you how it'll look. It's not complete and the sprite's proportion and shading is off, but again it's just for show. Enjoy!
But as a long-winded answer, No, we don't have a website up yet. But to somehow tide you over for now, I have a couple pictures I've been working on. The screenshot was thrown together to sort of show you how it'll look. It's not complete and the sprite's proportion and shading is off, but again it's just for show. Enjoy!
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MusicallyInspired
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Thanks. I got another screen up, and again the sprite isn't the final version. Her arms will come down, I assure you.
Also, I am looking for:
STORY WRITERS: Creative people looking to work in a small group, to look over the original story, develop game elements further and possibly change some ideas around to create a better flow for the game. Also, possibly work on adding some challenges or puzzles. I have a private forum set up where we can discuss ideas, and I have a enhanced story layout set up.
If anyone is interested drop me a line at Dump401@yahoo.com
Also, I am looking for:
STORY WRITERS: Creative people looking to work in a small group, to look over the original story, develop game elements further and possibly change some ideas around to create a better flow for the game. Also, possibly work on adding some challenges or puzzles. I have a private forum set up where we can discuss ideas, and I have a enhanced story layout set up.
If anyone is interested drop me a line at Dump401@yahoo.com
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MusicallyInspired
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Tools of the Trade
What tools did you use to create your sprites and BG's?
I have flirted with the idea of starting a remake of "Conquests of Camelot" but I have tried numerous paths and each leave me either dissapointed or it loses the original feel.
I have flirted with the idea of starting a remake of "Conquests of Camelot" but I have tried numerous paths and each leave me either dissapointed or it loses the original feel.
DCS, I scouted for a 3D artist for the sprites. And I really lucked out. She creates and renders a 3D model for easy animation, then we put several frames from that and put it into AGS. I felt that a 3D model was the only sprite I could use to work on the background style.
And as far as the backgrounds, I just use Photoshop. The technique was so simple, I'm surprised it took me so long to think of it. And it might come in handy for you, if you remake "Conquests of Camelot" since it was a SCI game. I opened up "Colonel's Bequest" in SCI Studio and ripped out all of the backgrounds. I had to screen grab, because I couldn't find another way to do it, but there might be. I then brought the files into Photoshop and cropped real-life images on top of the image, to make it look realistic. It's really not as complicated as it sounds, and it definitely took less time for me than it would to hand-draw and digitally color each of the backgrounds.
And on a related note, we are still looking for team-mates. If anyone is interested, my email is in my last post.
And as far as the backgrounds, I just use Photoshop. The technique was so simple, I'm surprised it took me so long to think of it. And it might come in handy for you, if you remake "Conquests of Camelot" since it was a SCI game. I opened up "Colonel's Bequest" in SCI Studio and ripped out all of the backgrounds. I had to screen grab, because I couldn't find another way to do it, but there might be. I then brought the files into Photoshop and cropped real-life images on top of the image, to make it look realistic. It's really not as complicated as it sounds, and it definitely took less time for me than it would to hand-draw and digitally color each of the backgrounds.
And on a related note, we are still looking for team-mates. If anyone is interested, my email is in my last post.
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MusicallyInspired
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Billetwound
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Two weeks left until my summer break, and then I want to get this game back in production and get a website up and running for it. Unfortunately I had a bit of trouble keeping team members, with everyone's conflicting schedules including my own, the game fell into limbo for the moment. But I hope to bring updates soon. Thanks for the continued interest!