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What is the one thing you would "flesh out" in QG2?
Some place/places to visit in the mountains. 6%  6%  [ 1 ]
More "places" to visit in the desert. 17%  17%  [ 3 ]
More activity in the city - more people, more places. 22%  22%  [ 4 ]
A more active night life for the city. 22%  22%  [ 4 ]
More time spent is Rasier, and Rasier a bigger & more complex city. 17%  17%  [ 3 ]
You can fix the graphics, but otherwise hands off! >:( 17%  17%  [ 3 ]
Total votes : 18
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 Post subject: The Great QG2 made Greater.
PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 3:35 pm 
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I loved playing Trial by Fire. This was the first game I played in the series.

Most of all I loved the atmosphere of the game.

What would I improve?

First of all a comment about the remake of QG2. Thanks for doing it AGDInteractive - I am awed and humbled by your efforts. I have only one suggestion for your remake (the rest of my thoughts are pie in the sky). I recently played QG5 with thief, mage and paladin for the first time (not sure what took me so long to get around to playing it, though one advantage was no bugs!), and noticed two things.

1. The music was fantastic.
2. The images of the character's faces were small and pathetic.

Compare the katta faces from the QG1 remake to the kattas in QG5. No comparison.

I have wondered why you guys are not remaking QG2 in higher resolution than VGA? But the answer obvious so I will not ask you about that. But I would suggest you consider making the faces pictures that appear when talking to people of a superior quality to the background animation. This may seem like an odd suggestion but just consider QG5 and you'll understand where I'm coming from.

Now on to the pie in the sky...


Rasier. First I think Rasier should be a much more complex city (as Shapeir is). I think it should have a strong night life. I think the days and nights spent in Rasier should be similar to that spent in Shapier. I think it should be a dangerous city, especially at night (the underground streets should be places where you can fight people). I think there should be places to visit in the desert outside. Enough said about Rasier. What do you think?

Thief. I think there should be many more places to rob and steal. Shapeir is a big city after all - a thieves dream after the puny town of Spielburb. Perhaps some complications with other thieves and the Thieves Guild. In all the games I think the thief character should be able to break into forbidden areas such as the castle in Spielburg, Shapier & Silmaria and the liontaur sections of the city in Tarna.


Saurus. I think in Rasier there should be a fight Saurus. One where you can fight on its back, and it bites and claws at the opponents too!  :evil

Wizard's Institute – this should be a place, not just a test.  It should be a place that you can vist daily (once you find it). I think it should be a mini city.

The Caravan trip.. The caravan trip is a passive experience. This should take a few weeks. Where there are sub quests and challenges and people to talk to along the way.

Food. At the inn, the food should be waiting for you when you wake up. This would speed things up in the morning and allow you a chance to gossip.

And lastly more of the puzzles should have been solveable in multiple ways - ie each character type should have there own ways of solving problems.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 9:50 pm 
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But I would suggest you consider making the faces pictures that appear when talking to people of a superior quality to the background animation.


Some dialogue pictures for QFG2VGA are visible if you check out our avatar gallery or watch the QFG2VGA trailer.

Quote:
Rasier. First I think Rasier should be a much more complex city (as Shapeir is). I think it should have a strong night life. I think the days and nights spent in Rasier should be similar to that spent in Shapier. I think it should be a dangerous city, especially at night (the underground streets should be places where you can fight people). I think there should be places to visit in the desert outside. Enough said about Rasier. What do you think?


I doubt there's much night life in Raseir because of the curfew. It's forbidden to be out at night, so no sane person risks getting tossed into the dungeon by going on nightly walks. I'm not sure what you're referring to by "underground streets", btw. I think Raseir should not resemble Shapeir very much. Raseir is no bustling city...it's a corrupt place where people barely dare to get out of their houses...Shapeir's opposite in every way. About new things in the desert...there'd be very little time to visit them. You can only actually enter the desert during the first half day you're in Raseir. (it's mid-afternoon when you arrive and you're not allowed to go out at night) The day after, the guards won't even allow you to leave the city anymore, even with your visa.

Quote:
I think there should be many more places to rob and steal. Shapeir is a big city after all - a thieves dream after the puny town of Spielburb. Perhaps some complications with other thieves and the Thieves Guild. In all the games I think the thief character should be able to break into forbidden areas such as the castle in Spielburg, Shapier & Silmaria and the liontaur sections of the city in Tarna.


That would be nice, although I have doubts about the "many more"-part. QFG2 already has three thief-quests...more than QFG1, QFG3 and QFG4 have. In QFG2, you usually walk around with lots of money anyhow...you start the game with a steady cash flow, get 50 dinars for every elemental you defeat (although the latter two are rather useless), can get money or components from desert monsters and perform thief jobs that also pay good money. How would you ever spend all the money you'd get from so many extra thief jobs? I already have difficulty spending the money I collect over the game as it is.

Quote:
I think in Rasier there should be a fight Saurus. One where you can fight on its back, and it bites and claws at the opponents too!


Pretty cool idea, although, again, you'd have very little opportunity to use it. (not to mention the extra animations it'd require)

Quote:
this should be a place, not just a test.  It should be a place that you can vist daily (once you find it). I think it should be a mini city.


I kinda disagree on this and fully admit I'm conservative. The game is about Shapeir. I think having a parallel city with lots of things going on distracts from the actual goin-ons in the city and disrupts the flow of the game. Imagine if you'd have the opportunity to explore QFG5's Silmaria (or even part of it) in QFG3. It would kinda throw the flow of the story out of order.

Quote:
The caravan trip is a passive experience. This should take a few weeks. Where there are sub quests and challenges and people to talk to along the way.


Again, I feel this is right for the flow of the story. During the last day in Shapeir, all Katta merchants tell you they're rooting for you, Uhura, Rakeesh and Aziza all give you their regards and Omar holds a speech in your honor. Lots of merchants see you off when you leave. After all that, the player is really aching to speed off to Rasier and face things head-on. By having a very long intermezzo, with lots of subquests and stuff, I'd imagine the player's enthusiasm has already cooled down a lot and when finally arriving at Raseir, he'd find himself asking: "Now why did I go here again?" :)

Quote:
And lastly more of the puzzles should have been solveable in multiple ways - ie each character type should have there own ways of solving problems.


Which particular puzzles in the game do you believe should have class-specific solutions?

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 3:02 pm 
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Quote:
I kinda disagree on this and fully admit I'm conservative.


With ideas we can take a generative approach, or a reject/cull approach. Many of your comments are of the culling type. I hoped to encourage as many people as possible to leave there ideas here. However I do think there is a place for rejecting ideas - but by what criteria is sensible?

I don't think comments about the limitations of resource available in implementation of ideas is appropriate in this post. That is comments about extra animations, extra developer time etc aren't helpful in encouraging other people to share their ideas.

Your comments about affecting the flow of the game I do think are appropriate. I may or may not agree but its critism on the right level - just like a scene of a film may cut for various artistic reasons.

However most of your reasons for rejecting the various ideas put forth are
of another type.
Quote:

Quote:
Quote:
I think there should be many more places to rob and steal. Shapeir is a big city after all - a thieves dream after the puny town of Spielburb. Perhaps some complications with other thieves and the Thieves Guild. In all the games I think the thief character should be able to break into forbidden areas such as the castle in Spielburg, Shapier & Silmaria and the liontaur sections of the city in Tarna.


That would be nice, although I have doubts about the "many more"-part. QFG2 already has three thief-quests...more than QFG1, QFG3 and QFG4 have. In QFG2, you usually walk around with lots of money anyhow...you start the game with a steady cash flow, get 50 dinars for every elemental you defeat (although the latter two are rather useless), can get money or components from desert monsters and perform thief jobs that also pay good money. How would you ever spend all the money you'd get from so many extra thief jobs? I already have difficulty spending the money I collect over the game as it is.


When working of the conceptual level, why apply such strange limitations? "You can't have extra thief quests, because that would led to having lots of money, too much money". When changing ideas, you can change more than a single element. In fact you have to. If a director was to remove or add a scene to a film it is likely other parts of the film will need change too - reediting, reshoot etc. In a game like QG2 there are several ways extra thieves quests could be added:
    + Stealing for someone else (I'll invent a scenario: the thieves guild is going to kill a thief because he owes them money. The TG will spare his life and cancel the debt if you steal object X from the palace. Thus you have an interesting quest, without having the problem of too much money. (By the way I think the point about having too much money is a valid thing to point out, but not a reason to reject an idea).

    + QG5 had an interesting idea - an expensive game for thieves among thieves. I would like to say that I like the idea of this but not how the designers implemented it. I won't say why, but I say this to show that sometimes an ideas isn't bad because the implementation is bad.

    + Expensive goods or services for the thief to purchase. Did anyone ever play Gold Rush? A great sierra game (very old) where the user could take one of three different paths to the Gold fields of California from a city in the eastern US (a forget which city). Great idea, great game. The journey from Shapier to Rasier could be different for each character. EG The magic user gets to Rasier via magic (how? magic carpet, through WIT?), the thief via an expensive means. The fighter by working as a body guard for the trip. Who is he guarding? I'm already excited by the possiblity, by the question - aren't you?

    + Some thing inspired from Thousand and One Nights. Alladin or something :)

    + After doing a great quest where you get lots of loot, you get knocked out and wake up....where? Who did it?.... How will you use your
    thief skills to escape? Regardless, you lose the loot.  :\

    + [spoiler]That blasted black bird. It should have meant a whole lot more when you got in in QG5. The designers cut a lot of corners in implementing that I think. I digress. There could be a quest in Shapier for the bird - but it ends up being a fake.[/spoiler]

Quote:
Quote:
Rasier. First I think Rasier should be a much more complex city (as Shapeir is). I think it should have a strong night life. I think the days and nights spent in Rasier should be similar to that spent in Shapier. I think it should be a dangerous city, especially at night (the underground streets should be places where you can fight people). I think there should be places to visit in the desert outside. Enough said about Rasier. What do you think?

Quote:
I doubt there's much night life in Raseir because of the curfew. It's forbidden to be out at night, so no sane person risks getting tossed into the dungeon by going on nightly walks. I'm not sure what you're referring to by "underground streets", btw. I think Raseir should not resemble Shapeir very much. Raseir is no bustling city...it's a corrupt place where people barely dare to get out of their houses...Shapeir's opposite in every way. About new things in the desert...there'd be very little time to visit them. You can only actually enter the desert during the first half day you're in Raseir. (it's mid-afternoon when you arrive and you're not allowed to go out at night) The day after, the guards won't even allow you to leave the city anymore, even with your visa.


Again some strange example of an illusionary forced hand. Can't leave the city of Rasier after the first day? Why? Because that was how it was written. Thus is could have been written differently. Too little time to spend in the desert? What? Why? If there is or isn't time to spend in the desert that is because it was designed that way. Imagine applying that logic to whether to put the elementals in the game?

I agree that Rasier shouldn't resemble Shapeir. The city of Rasier is unique in the cities and towns of the QG world. It is dirty, dangerous, full of thieves, murderers, rutherless men. It is a place where the hero has a chance to be challenged to survive in a place that isn't as ideal as many of the other cities in the QG world (such as Shapier). It is also a place where the thief really could have a distinctive advantage. In QG5 there was certain disadvantage to being a thief ([spoiler] you couldn't marry certain characters [/spoiler]). I think each class of character should have many social advantages and disadvantages to increase the fun and interest of replaying the game more than once. The game could be describe in three parts - Shapier part, Rasier part, then the end part with the bad guy. The last two parts are underdeveloped.


My idea about a bigger WIT - this could be expanded a little or a lot.  The city ideas is one of my cooler ideas, but admittedly my most radical. It would completely change the game for the magic user. Certainly not a minor change. But all this is just ideas. I more modest version would be just a single screen/room where you could chat to a wizard (maybe Erasmus and Fenrus).

The way you get to Rasier, Rasier itself, and the desert all needed more complexity and richness. There are many ways you could do that, without losing the flow and tension of the developing plot. In fact the flow could even be enhanced.


Last edited by ck25 on Fri Aug 04, 2006 5:25 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 12:56 pm 
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But I would suggest you consider making the faces pictures that appear when talking to people of a superior quality to the background animation.


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Some dialogue pictures for QFG2VGA are visible if you check out our avatar gallery or watch the QFG2VGA trailer.


Thanks for pointing these out to me.  I think they are really great!


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 3:08 pm 
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There's are some excellent ideas, but as regards the Fighter acting as a bodyguard on the caravan to Rasier, every Hero type acts as one in the original. "Victory smells kind of like.....sweat! Yeah, that's it! sweat!" Also, I like the ideas for the various Thief quests, but I'm not sure how much they're going to implement. I believe this remake is going to pretty much be 1:1. Also, [spoiler]you do go on a quest for the Blackbird if your a Thief. And it does turn out to be fake.[/spoiler]


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 Post subject: the appeal of magic and of being bad
PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 5:02 am 
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[spoiler]I know there is a fake blackbird in Rasier. I was just suggesting there could have been another thief quest in Shapier for it too.[/spoiler]

I think with the thief people like the idea for being involved in the seedy underbelly of a civilisation - one that is hidden from others. I think people like to explore selfishness, ruthlessness, imorality and dirty underhanded tricks. Did you ever play Knights of the Old Republic? A great game (the sequal was also good, though it was rushed to market and was underdeveloped). In K of the OR you could move toward the Dark or Light side of the Force with your actions. I always acted Evil first because its easier to be evil and also to just get it out of my system :)

With the magic user I think people like - well - magic! They want to manipulate the world with magic, solve problems with magic, interact within magical subcultures, maybe even become uber power - more powerful than mere morals such as kings, soldiers, etc.

I know the AGD people will not be expanding the QG2 game beyond the original. I just like to share my thoughts on the extra potential of these stories/worlds, and to incourage others to do the same :)

How about you give it a shot? I would love to hear any ideas you have :)


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 Post subject: different characters to interact with based of hero class.
PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 5:32 am 
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Shapier is a big city, yet you don't get the chance to interact with that many people.

I think in all games of this type (so including QG1-5) each character class should have expanded or contracted interaction with certain types. EG Fighter with Rakeesh. Magic user with any other magic user. The thief with seedy people.

Also there should be characters that you only meet (and places you only go to) dependent on your hero's class type. An example of how this is done is with the thief you meet other characters that you don't meet if your a magic user or fighter.


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