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Would you move to Canada?
Only if Bush wins. 17%  17%  [ 5 ]
Only if Kerry wins. 14%  14%  [ 4 ]
Only if Nader wins. 3%  3%  [ 1 ]
Only if someone offers me a job there. 10%  10%  [ 3 ]
No, but they sure have good beer. 17%  17%  [ 5 ]
No. Universal health care scares me. 3%  3%  [ 1 ]
I already live in Canada. 24%  24%  [ 7 ]
I don't live in North America. 10%  10%  [ 3 ]
Total votes : 29
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 Post subject: Would you move to Canada?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2004 12:55 am 
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This topic came up in the news recently. I wonder what people here think.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2004 1:06 am 
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People WAY over esitimate the power of the President. Getting Citizenship for another country isn't as easy as people like to think either, and good luck moving to another country and getting a job there without it. It's best to suck it up and LIVE with the facts that not every person you vote for will be the elected one.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2004 12:37 pm 
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Not planning on moving there, but I'll take your word for the beer..

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2004 12:45 pm 
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I sometimes wonder why all Americans doesn't live in Canada. As an outsider (and I know most people around the world would agree with me) Canada is a much nicer and more attractive place than the US!!!


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2004 6:08 pm 
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That's a dangerous assumption. Outsiders dont tend to hate America for it's landscape...they rag on America for it's PEOPLE.

We're not quite as bad as most think we are, just a few apples spoil the bunch.

I wouldn't want to move to Canada any more than I'd want to move to ANY other country. Just because it's right next door doesn't mean it gives the greatest appeal of all countries one would consider moving to.

EVERYONE assumes their home country is the best, it's just a natual feeling. But that doesn't necessarily make any one country better than any other. I'm not gonna cry and leave the country that I call home just because not everyone agreed with me on who I wanted voted into office.

Moving to a new country is not simple at all, especially when the country your moving to or away from is the USA. Entirely different measurement system, new currencies, new culture, new language and dialect, new laws, new job, new friends, new environment, new everything.

Just because I'm proud of my country, doesn't mean I'm proud of everything my country DOES.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2004 7:07 pm 
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TakariFreak wrote:
EVERYONE assumes their home country is the best, it's just a natual feeling. But that doesn't necessarily make any one country better than any other. I'm not gonna cry and leave the country that I call home just because not everyone agreed with me on who I wanted voted into office.

Moving to a new country is not simple at all, especially when the country your moving to or away from is the USA. Entirely different measurement system, new currencies, new culture, new language and dialect, new laws, new job, new friends, new environment, new everything.

Just because I'm proud of my country, doesn't mean I'm proud of everything my country DOES.


I agree. But that said, there are some Americans who believe that one candidate or another will have a direct, negative impact on their lives. One woman interviewed on the CBC last week (from Nevada, I believe) said that if Bush is re-elected, she and her husband would seriously consider moving to another country. "If most Americans think that [the U.S. under Bush] is a free country, then I'm not sure I can call myself an American anymore," she said.

As an outsider, I'm interested to know how widespread that feeling is, in general.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2004 7:24 pm 
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Not very.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2004 6:31 am 
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TakariFreak wrote:
That's a dangerous assumption. Outsiders dont tend to hate America for it's landscape...they rag on America for it's PEOPLE.


Heh. I meant it as a joke. :) I knew US people wouldn't be happy with that statement.

But still, my main problem with normal US citizens is the propaganda your government is spitting out and the citizens seemingly chewing it up. Open your eyes people!!!

But I guess that's the only problem I have with normal US people. :)

I would go to Canada, since a 1/12th of the population is South African. :)


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2004 8:37 am 
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Well, we only elect our leaders...we aren't responsible for their actions. Yes, that system puts a lot of trust into the politicians, but we can't be held responsible for everything they do.

Some things arent even under their contol. People WAY overestimate the preseident's power. He's got power over the Army and the power of Veto. Thats about it. And congress Can override him on both accounts.

Most Americans DO dislike their own government, but there's not much we can do about it. We aren't "chewing it up" because we WANT to, we seemingly do because we dont have much of a choice. Even if we did, we couldn't decide on what we want and we'd be worse off.

Honestly, I dont even see WHY other countries even give a crap about our goverment unless some edict or something directly involves them. We dont worry about goverments of other countries (on a basic level, some do, but most dont), for good reason. We dont live there, we dont know what goes on, it doesnt directly affect us, so why the hell get involved? We didn't ask for half the world to put down our people and our goverment. But yet, you all do it anyway. This topic is a PERFECT example. You don't see US on a large scale level doing it to you. I have yet to see, for example, ONE person I know of (that is American) EVER insult or question the goverment of another country. But I know a heck of a lot of foreigners who do. Worry about your OWN countries please. We have enough on our plates dealing with our own goverment, we dont need non-affected people dragging their asses into it, thank you.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2004 8:56 am 
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When your presidents decide to bomb one of our neighbor countries and the bombs fall on our territory and blow up a house in our capital city, hundreds of kilometers away from the supposed targets, we have the right not only to be interested, but to bitch as well. The levels of radioactivity are still very high in the area, the projected cancer rates are also high. When your presidents wave a wad of money at our kiss-ass-politcians, and most people in Europe in the past years have voted for the parties depending on their loyalty to one or another presidential candidate (a bit overgenerlaized, but nonetheless true), of course we should be vocal about our opinions. A common joke in Europe is that the importance of the American president for the world's international politics is so big, that all citizens of the world should be allowed to vote for a president of the USA.

An opinion of a non-affected person.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2004 4:16 pm 
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Apparently it isn't true that most U.S. citizens don't like their own government, as last nights elections left things largely unchanged, and the popular vote matched the outcomes.

Does anyone watching this stuff really think there is still a chance for John Kerry? I understand his decision not to call it a day quite yet, but I think the projection of the number of outstanding ballots is unrealistic. Even taking the highest numbers being thrown around, Kerry would have to take over 80 - 85% of them.

Meerbat, I've heard that joke quite a bit too. And I feel that is the reason that citizens of other countries get so angry about the politics in the U.S. The political and economic power of the U.S. affects nearly every country directly, and yet the citizens of those countries, for better or worse, don't have any way of affecting it. So, they get upset.

Me? I won't be moving to Canada. I'm a U.S. citizen, but I didn't vote. I moved recently and found out at the last minute that I wasn't registered anymore. I don't really care since my state, Illinois, is too strongly democratic for a vote to make a difference in either direction. Kerry was already a given.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2004 4:44 pm 
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Meerbat wrote:
A common joke in Europe is that the importance of the American president for the world's international politics is so big, that all citizens of the world should be allowed to vote for a president of the USA.


I think you hit the nail on the head. The simple fact is that the decisions of the American government affect the lives of millions of non-Americans around the world. Consider two examples from my own country: punishing and entirely unfair import duties on softwood lumber and the ban on Canadian beef.

TakariFreak wrote:
We dont worry about goverments of other countries (on a basic level, some do, but most dont), for good reason. We dont live there, we dont know what goes on, it doesnt directly affect us, so why the hell get involved?


While rank-and-file Americans may not know or care about the governments of other countries, your policymakers certainly do. America (and North America, to a lesser extent) needs stable foreign governments with healthy economies to supply most of its energy and consumer goods. American consumer spending is one of the main things propping up the economy in the face of massive budget and trade deficits.

TakariFreak wrote:
I have yet to see, for example, ONE person I know of (that is American) EVER insult or question the goverment of another country.


You obviously don't watch Fox News. :p

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Last edited by Charlemagne on Wed Nov 03, 2004 4:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2004 4:45 pm 
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Meerbat wrote:
When your presidents decide to bomb one of our neighbor countries and the bombs fall on our territory and blow up a house in our capital city, hundreds of kilometers away from the supposed targets, we have the right not only to be interested, but to bitch as well


What exactly are you referring to, Meerbat? How long ago was this? I have an idea of what you're talking about, but I don't want to jump the gun. Elaborate please....


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2004 6:02 pm 
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I was in the hospital yesterday, thanks to a Bush supporter hitting our car en route to the polling station. The police also illegally searched our car...while we were in the ambulance, on our way to the hospital.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2004 6:28 pm 
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Hmmm...I was wondering when one of these types of topics would pop up. I thought it would find its way to the OT Forum, but it wound up here instead. Just a reminder that discussing politics is okay, but please don't start flaming one another or this topic will have to end up edited and probably locked. You've been cool so far guys (gives Gron a cookie and pats him on the head :) ), so keep it up.

Now, having said that, it really saddens me on some level that Bush got reelected. Unlike a lot of people, I think how the world views us is of utmost importance. There will always be dissenters, because that's the way the world is, but by and large the US used to have a favourable worldwide opinion. Now, it couldn't be more opposite. I'd imagine that people think of Bush as a gun-slinging cowboy who wants his Texas tea (a.k.a. oil). Iraq was the biggest mistake of his administration, IMO. We first went in because Saddam posed an imminent threat. Turned out to be false. Then he decided it was because of the WMD. No WMD were found. Then he said it was because of the terrorist network. Well, correct me if I'm wrong, but Osama isn't Iraqi. Iraqis didn't fly planes into towers. Iraqis didn't bomb us...we bombed them. So then he turns his focus onto liberating the Iraqi people. Have we done that? Okay, Saddam is gone, but how much better is Iraqi life now? Major operations have been over for a year and a half, but still countless American and Iraqi lives are being lost, and chaos abounds. There are suicide bombs, car bombs, beheadings...almost like a terrorist state. We made life different for Iraq, that's for sure, but I can't go so far as to say we've made it better.

Bush has given the world a view that he is a rogue leader of a superpower country, and looking at it from a factual standpoint, I can see where they'd think that. Then we go and reelect him, so what does that say about the world's views on the American public? There were record turnouts at the polls yesterday, and the race was still so extremely close, because of the morality issues many hold dear in the US (i.e. abortion, gay marriage). The country has never been more divided, and the world has never hated us more. It's almost a race to see which will come first - World War III, or US Civil War II. Scary world. I hope to hell Bush knows what he's doing...

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2004 7:13 pm 
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Just a reminder that discussing politics is okay


THIS time. Our stance on politics is public knowledge, but since the 2004 elections are such a major event, I can't ignore it alltogether.

If the rest of the world had a say in the elections, there would have been no contest.

You can say what you want about Bush being a divisive president, but no other president managed to sow the seeds of unity in so many countries. (unfortunately, one country being the exception, but you can't win them all :p) If only the world's unity was in favor of him.

I disagree with Takari's statement. The tension about the election was obvious even here. Everybody was constantly refreshing american newssites to see if there was a winner already. Like others said, US foreign policies span across the entire world and a regime change in the US can either result in or prevent a regime change in other countries. (not just Iraq, these kinds of things happened during the cold war also) And then there's the economic influence Charlemagne mentioned.

I was personally rooting for Kerry, truth be told. I kinda disagree with Bush on just about every issue there is. But then again, had Kerry won, he would have had a few sticky situations like the deficit and Iraq to clean up. It's more or less fair that Bush now owes the public the responsibility to get the US out of those situations. Now let's hope he's a bit more willing to look into his own errors. (not his strength, I know) The fact that Kerry got so far, partially due to the ABB-attitude is concerning from Bush' point of view.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2004 7:49 pm 
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Erpy wrote:
Our stance on politics is public knowledge....


It is? I don't recall seeing anything about discussing politics in the forum rules. Maybe I was looking in the wrong place. I do remember a couple of politically-oriented threads being deleted beacuse of excessive flamage, but still....

Regarding Bush, I have an opinion of why he remained so popular despite some of the more glaring failures of his administration (job loss, budget deficit, false pretext for war, etc.): he appears to be doing something. After 9/11, George W. Bush put on the "tough guy" image that many shell-shocked Americans clamouring for retribution wanted to see. Think about it: he's from Texas; he wears stetson hats; he talks in cowboy language; he uses those macho 30 second soundbites that TV networks love, etc., etc. Then he went out there and did something with tanks and guns and bombs. Never mind the consequences or that there may have been other, possibly better and certainly less unilateral, options. He did something, and in the "war on terror" something is always better than nothing.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2004 7:59 pm 
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I agree with that much. I remember after 9/11, almost the entire nation was united with him. I still remember watching his speech that night, and feeling genuinely moved and proud that he was our president. If he wanted unity, he got it, and it fell right into his lap.

Then he went and squandered it away by diverting attention from Afghanistan (which most people would say he was justified in going after) onto Iraq. That's where the sour grapes come from. America felt betrayed that many of them supported the war as being part of the war on terror, and it's looking now more like the war for oil. I watched the election coverage from 7 - 11 yesterday, and it seemed that most of the people who voted for Bush did so because they agreed with his moral issues, rather than basing anything on the economy or Iraq. The economy issues could go either way, either Bush caused them or is fixing them - that's still kind of in the air, but most people will agree that he ****ed up in Iraq, and the world's opinion of us because of it has never been lower. And trust me, we've done some pretty nasty things to get the world to hate us - Hiroshima/Nagasaki, Vietnam, etc. But reelecting the man who basically destroyed what world relations we did have makes the American public look bad, and it not only appauls me, but it also frightens me.

Erpy brought up an excellent point:

Quote:
You can say what you want about Bush being a divisive president, but no other president managed to sow the seeds of unity in so many countries. (unfortunately, one country being the exception, but you can't win them all :p) If only the world's unity was in favor of him.


I couldn't have said it better myself. I think, as a world, you're only as strong as your weakest link, and we've just become a very weak link because of this. Unfortunately, with the elections over and the leader decided, all we can do at this point is hope that Bush rectifies himself in his second term, rather than expounding on what he's already done. *crosses fingers*

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2004 10:47 pm 
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Everywhere I read that Bush was supported largely because of his stance on moral issues. I also read that he opposes gay marriages, abortion, and stem cell research.

I support stem cell research, but I understand it is contraversial. However, the other two issues seem to be fairly clear cut. That is, if you believe in free choice and equality - as opposed to imposing Christian beliefs on everyone, as we know Bush does.

Why, America, does it seem that the majority of you oppose the right of women to have free choice? Why shouldn't gay couples be given the same rights as straight couples?

Even as an Australian, this election result bothers me very much.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2004 6:02 am 
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Why, America, does it seem that the majority of you oppose the right of women to have free choice? Why shouldn't gay couples be given the same rights as straight couples?


Ummm, Gav, I'm not certain if a debate on gay marriage/abortion is what I want in here. Those are two subjects that are known to set forums on fire in a heartbeat.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2004 6:11 am 
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:lol Erpy's got a good point.

But if you look at the parts of the country that voted for Bush, it was the predominately religious section of the country, that being the midwest and the south. The industrial and economic regions, however, where commerce trumps religion by and large, voted Kerry. Combine that with the fact that the popular vote was split like 51%/49%, and you can understand why half of America is asking the same questions as you, Gav. America hasn't been this divided on moral issues since 1861.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2004 6:57 am 
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Ok... I prepared a long post, but decided to delete it because Wolfgang gave me a cookie.

One year from now, another country will be dust, and once again terrorism will be blamed. You gave him the green light, and the weaker countries will pay for it. And meanwhile Bin Ladin is drinking tea at the Bush household. (Anyone else thought the 'timing' of the Bin Ladin video was the deciding factor in this election of yours?)

Edit: Interesting... the bonds between the states seem to be weaker than ever. Perhaps we'll see the states fall apart in the next few decades? A 'delayed' mirror effect of the other superpower in the cold war?


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2004 7:32 am 
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Well, I don't know if I'd go so far as to say there's a conspiracy between Bush and Bin Laden (despite what Michael Moore wants us to think), but there are always things to question. The only people who would have enough information to make an accurate judgement on that wouldn't be loose-lipped enough to say anything about it outright, that's for sure. So all we as citizens can do is speculate. But I don't think anyone ever speculated that FDR was in cahoots with Hitler, so the fact that there's even a suspicion is frightening. Too frightening.

Quote:
Edit: Interesting... the bonds between the states seem to be weaker than ever. Perhaps we'll see the states fall apart in the next few decades? A 'delayed' mirror effect of the other superpower in the cold war?


You know, that wouldn't really surprise me to be honest with you. If we became a more divided states of America in the next four years. Bush got this big ship heading in the complete wrong direction, and it'll take all his power to turn it back around, and I don't even know if that's his goal. At this point, I don't think it's safe to say that anyone knows what his goal is.

So, now I'm curious because of what Erpy said. For those of you who aren't residents of America, what would you say is the percentage of people in your country who wanted Bush out of office? I'm expecting the percentages to be fairly high, but I'm really interested.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2004 7:48 am 
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I'm expecting the percentages to be fairly high, but I'm really interested.


They are. ;) I read in the paper rather recently that Kerry would have won by a landslide if other countries in the world could vote. Only a two countries had a majority vote for Bush.

Edit: Here's the link to that article: http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/ ... click=true


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2004 8:04 am 
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Regarding the question of how people from other countries feel about Bush: most of the people I know in life are from Brazil and they hate him as a rule. Not many people in Brazil talk too much about American politics though. The 2000 recount was a big story there as was 9/11. Brazilians are generally afraid to come to the U.S. because they are afraid of being the victim of a terrorist attack. That isn't realistic, but if you watched Brazilian T.V., you would probably feel that way too.

I understand that people have different opinions of Bush, but I think it's going way out on a limb to suggest that the United States will be splitting up anytime soon. As a country, our political beliefs aren't necessarily more divided than at many other points in our history.

The Bin Laden tapes seemed, at least to me, to be more timely to the Kerry campaign. What do you think the message was? I think it was trying to convey that A) Bin Laden is still alive meaning that Bush has failed in his efforts to capture him, B) that the war on terror and the war in Iraq are costing us a great deal of money, and C) that Bush has been played for a fool and has been tricked into a war that could possibly bankrupt us.

Maybe I'm missing the bigger picture, but none of that seems particularly timely to Bush campaign to me. It would take a lot of evidence for me to believe that Bush is in cahoots with Bin Laden or to believe that the war in Iraq is about stealing their oil or any other conspiracy theory about all this.

I don't think the vote was such a split between urban/secular and rural/religious areas as people have been saying either. There are a lot of other divisions among voters: union vs. non-union, age groups, male/female, race. The difference between how whites and blacks voted was enormous compared to the difference in how religious groups did.

I really don't think religious issues were the deciding factor here. I think that Bush is more well liked than many people realize, I think the Democratic party didn't do a good enough job in selling Kerry to the American people. Most importantly, I think way more people agree with the war in Iraq than we would like to admit. If any story was timely to the Bush campaign it was the Dutch filmmaker who was murdered by an extremist, but those kind of stories seem to happen every day anyway.

EDIT: Frizzi, I'm curious to read that article but I don't want to sign up for anything. What were the two countries?


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