It is currently Tue Dec 12, 2017 12:49 am

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 51 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

Would you move to Canada?
Only if Bush wins. 17%  17%  [ 5 ]
Only if Kerry wins. 14%  14%  [ 4 ]
Only if Nader wins. 3%  3%  [ 1 ]
Only if someone offers me a job there. 10%  10%  [ 3 ]
No, but they sure have good beer. 17%  17%  [ 5 ]
No. Universal health care scares me. 3%  3%  [ 1 ]
I already live in Canada. 24%  24%  [ 7 ]
I don't live in North America. 10%  10%  [ 3 ]
Total votes : 29
Author Message
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2004 10:37 am 
Offline
Saurus Salesman
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 03, 2002 3:18 pm
Posts: 3880
Location: South Africa (Bloemfontein)
Parhelion wrote:
The Bin Laden tapes seemed, at least to me, to be more timely to the Kerry campaign. What do you think the message was? I think it was trying to convey that A) Bin Laden is still alive meaning that Bush has failed in his efforts to capture him, B) that the war on terror and the war in Iraq are costing us a great deal of money, and C) that Bush has been played for a fool and has been tricked into a war that could possibly bankrupt us.


Well. Think about it. Since Bush took action the States were fairly safe, because the war was elsewhere. Bush made good on his promises and for his re-election he said that he finished the biggest job and he wants to tie up the remaining loose ends.

If people are suddenly reminded of something bad a bully did and the bully suddenly appears again, obviously they'll feel safer next to their 'friend' the other bully, rather than a guy who prefers talking above fighting.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2004 12:20 am 
Offline
Peasant Status
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2004 2:31 am
Posts: 35
Quote:
EDIT: Frizzi, I'm curious to read that article but I don't want to sign up for anything. What were the two countries?


Here it is:

Kerry would win by a landslide if the world voted
By Michael Gordon National Editor
October 15, 2004

Most Australians do not like George Bush and want John Kerry to win next month's presidential election - and they are not alone.

A co-ordinated survey of attitudes by leading newspapers in 10 nations has revealed a sharp souring of attitudes towards the United States that can be traced to one man: Mr Bush.

Remarkably, the view of Australian voters on the key questions is almost perfectly in sync with the average recorded across the other nine nations: Canada, Britain, France, Spain, South Korea, Japan, Israel, Russia and Mexico.

Fifty-four per cent of Australian voters would prefer to see John Kerry in the White House - a figure that exactly matches the average of the 10 surveys.

Sixty-five per cent of Australians have an unfavourable view of Mr Bush. Just 28 per cent would prefer him to win on November 2. The averages across the 10 nations were 63 per cent and 27 per cent respectively.

And 54 per cent of Australians say their opinion of the US has declined in the past two or three years - again, exactly reflecting the average across the 10 nations.

But most people surveyed have a favourable view of American people. None have a more positive attitude than the citizens of America's Cold War rival, Russia.

Nearly 90 per cent of Russians have a favourable view of Americans, compared with 72 per cent of Australians and 62 per cent of Britons. Only the Spanish (47 per cent) do not like Americans.

In just two of the 10 countries do more voters want Mr Bush to win next month than Senator Kerry. In Israel, support for Mr Bush is at 50 per cent to Senator Kerry's 24 per cent. In Russia, the contest is closer, with 52 preferring Mr Bush returned and 48 wanting to see Senator Kerry elected.

Alejandro Moreno, a commentator for Mexico's Reforma, reconciled the positive views towards Americans with the worsening view of America in one adapted phrase: "It's Bush, stupid!"

The simultaneous surveys were the idea of La Presse in Canada. The project involved several of the world's leading newspapers, including France's Le Monde, Britain's The Guardian, Spain's El Pais and Israel's Haaretz.

Most of those surveyed believe it is important that the US play a world leadership role, an area where Australian opinion is stronger than the average.

Seventy-three per cent of Australians take this view, but less than 50 per cent agree in France, Spain and Russia.

Australians also have a more positive view of the Iraq war than voters in most of the other countries, even though most Australians do not believe the war was justified.

While an average of 55 per cent of Australian voters have opposed the war in AgePoll surveys by ACNielsen over the past 14 months, opposition is much higher in Canada (67 per cent), France (77), Spain (80), Japan (71), Mexico (83) and South Korea (85).

The strongest supporter of President Bush and the war in Iraq is Israel, where 70 per cent of voters support the President and 68 per cent say the US was right to invade Iraq.

As Shmuel Rosner of Haaretz puts it: "Israel loves America, and it loves the American President." He notes that Israel is a country very much focused on itself. "All they want to know is that the Americans are on their side in the important and difficult struggles they have to endure."

Perhaps most surprising is the anti-American sentiment in South Korea, a nation that owes its security and economic strength to the US.

Young Hie Kim, of JoongAng Ilbo, writes that in recent years, the perception of the US among many Koreans has changed drastically, especially among the young.

"Now, many see the US as having moved from a benefactor to an impediment to inter-Korean reconciliation; from a protector to a country that could shatter peace on the Korean Peninsula with hard-line policies towards North Korea."

In Canada, where ice hockey fans in Montreal boo the US national anthem before teams take to the ice, 64 per cent of voters have an unfavourable opinion of Mr Bush and say their opinion of the US has lowered in the past two or three years.

While hostility to Mr Bush is generally concentrated among younger voters, it extends to all categories of the population in France with the exception of those who support Jean-Marie Le Pen's extreme right National Front party.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2004 1:55 am 
Offline
Knight Status
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2003 6:55 am
Posts: 367
Location: Ferry Boat
No.... I dont have to because Bush won :D No flaming guys it's my opinion


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2004 2:21 am 
Offline
Defense Minister Status
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 14, 2004 1:07 am
Posts: 614
Location: Fort McMurray, Alberta, Canada
I AM from canda and this is sensitve topic for me because i live there its a graet place us is better because they get good games before us.

_________________
Image
Latest News and media
http://www.crystal-utada.net


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2004 2:22 am 
Offline
Dungeon Mistress
User avatar

Joined: Sat Apr 12, 2003 5:44 pm
Posts: 1332
Interesting article. Thanks, Fizzii.

_________________
Image

(Superhero Badge, courtesy of Pyro)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2004 5:48 am 
Offline
Infamous Sheik of Australia
User avatar

Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2003 3:43 pm
Posts: 1722
Location: Rockhampton Australia
Back to the original topic ...

I would move to Canada. Not permenantly, but for a couple of years. It's cool and I got a friend or two over there who would set me up with some easy women! :lol But, as Peter Allan said, I still call Australia home.

As for the US election, I think it's great that it was a more clear verdict than last time. As for why us foreigners are so interested in the US president and parliament, well it's your own fault. You won the cold war, you're the only superpower left, and you have set yourselves up as the worlds policeman. Of course we have an opinion, it'd be stupid to think we didn't. That said, I'm not a big fan of Bush, but Kerry was a turd and didn't deserve to win.

As Winston Churchill once said "People get the politicians they deserve."

I hope he does a good job. It effects us Aussies a lot, especially having a free-trade agreement with the US.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2004 5:49 am 
Offline
Royal Servant Status
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2004 5:11 am
Posts: 108
Fizzii, thank you. That was a very interesting article. I had guessed one of the countries would be Israel, but I never would have thought the other was Russia! I had guessed Great Britain. Sorry I messed up your name earlier. I think I confused you and Fribbi!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2004 6:40 am 
Offline
Saurus Salesman
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 03, 2002 3:18 pm
Posts: 3880
Location: South Africa (Bloemfontein)
Heh. It's actually funny how Americans are suddenly screaming that the world shouldn't judge them because of their government.

Russians are great people, but in the cold war they were all treated like dirt.

Arabs in general are very nice people. Reports of how arab people were treated in the US after 9/11 were very disturbing.

Heck... towards everyone. I've recently read a report by an american tourism reporter. She and her crew travelled through Africa, and after visiting Lesotho visited my home town. She wrote about the incredible racial conflict in Bloemfontein and how they were scolded because they were two white woman together with two black men. Simply put: b*llsh*t! That's a pretty common thing. In fact, you'll have to look VERY hard to find conflict of some sort. As in any part of the world the two races doesn't mingle 100%, but it's very peaceful. Inter-racial marriages are probably more common here than in the US!

I'm just saying: stop taking offense if people compare the american people with the american government. You've been doing it all these years to the rest of us.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2004 3:37 pm 
Offline
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2002 2:29 am
Posts: 2058
Quote:
I'm just saying: stop taking offense if people compare the american people with the american government. You've been doing it all these years to the rest of us.


1) Well, since we elect our leaders, it stands to reason that people would compare the citizens of the country to their government.

2) You must also realise that not all people in America feel that way, just as not all people in other countries feel that way toward America. I don't have unfavourable opinions toward Iraqis because Saddam was the leader, nor do most of the people I talk to. They didn't likd Saddam himself, but they don't compare the average Iraqi citizen to him, either. So by saying "you", you're referring to the country as a whole, including all it's people, which isn't fair no matter which country you're talking about.

~Wolfgang


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2004 6:01 pm 
Offline
Knight Status
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2003 6:55 am
Posts: 367
Location: Ferry Boat
Im sure canada would be cool to live in I mean its' a first world country and its got a rich history its gotta be a very viable option


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: BLAME CANADA! :P............................................
PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2004 11:14 pm 
Offline
King of Men
User avatar

Joined: Tue Aug 13, 2002 9:10 pm
Posts: 2373
Location: Balamb Garden
Well, it looks like some Americans are thinking about moving to Canada.

http://www.reuters.co.uk/printerFriendlyPopup.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=616225


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Nov 06, 2004 1:14 am 
Offline
Canadian Pundit
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 24, 2004 8:25 am
Posts: 445
Location: Ontario, Canada
According to the CBC, the day after the election, the Canadian immigration department's website saw a 500% increase in hits from the United States. It seems that many disgruntled Democrats are exploring their options. Whether or not that translates into an increase in American immigration remains to be seen. It's one thing to say "I'm moving to Canada" off-the-cuff, and quite another to actually pack up and move here.

I remember seeing Alec Baldwin on TV in 2000 saying that he would move to another country if George W. Bush won, and we all know how that turned out. Still, that was before 9/11 and the "war on terror" so I suspect things may be a little different this time.

There's a very good overview of Canadians' views on the U.S. election here.

_________________
I'm a man, but I can change, if I have to, I guess.
-- The man's prayer


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Nov 07, 2004 1:13 am 
Offline
Knight Status
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2003 6:55 am
Posts: 367
Location: Ferry Boat
Get outta here.... YOu're kidding right?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Nov 07, 2004 3:23 am 
Offline
Canadian Pundit
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 24, 2004 8:25 am
Posts: 445
Location: Ontario, Canada
Absolutely not. You can read the Reuters story about it here.

_________________
I'm a man, but I can change, if I have to, I guess.
-- The man's prayer


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Nov 07, 2004 9:57 am 
Offline
Forum Administrator
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2001 8:28 pm
Posts: 11434
Location: The Netherlands
I doubt many will follow through. It may depend slightly on how Bush wishes to govern...as president of the people of the US or as president of the 51% that elected him.

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Nov 07, 2004 9:22 pm 
Offline
Insomniac Speed Demon
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2004 10:23 pm
Posts: 1193
Location: Rotterdam, Netherlands
Should there not be an option

"Yes, because my almost boyfriend is moving to Canada this summer"

It will surely obtain a vote.

_________________
Image
-------
Denying people their rights because the majority votes for it is not democracy.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2004 12:29 am 
Offline
Knight Status
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2003 6:55 am
Posts: 367
Location: Ferry Boat
Sounds too me like some of those people are sore losers I think erpy's right though.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2004 5:54 am 
Offline
Forum Administrator
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2001 8:28 pm
Posts: 11434
Location: The Netherlands
Well, the time and effort it takes to get permanently settled up north may not make the whole thing worthwhile, as people still hold stuff like their hometown and family/friends dear. If Bush were to replace the retiring judges with right-wing replacements and manages to remake the constitution to fit the moral needs of himself and part of his voter's base, I definitely see some people following through eventually.

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2004 6:18 am 
Offline
Saurus Salesman
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 03, 2002 3:18 pm
Posts: 3880
Location: South Africa (Bloemfontein)
Wolfgang Abenteuer wrote:
Quote:
I'm just saying: stop taking offense if people compare the american people with the american government. You've been doing it all these years to the rest of us.


2) You must also realise that not all people in America feel that way, just as not all people in other countries feel that way toward America. I don't have unfavourable opinions toward Iraqis because Saddam was the leader, nor do most of the people I talk to. They didn't likd Saddam himself, but they don't compare the average Iraqi citizen to him, either. So by saying "you", you're referring to the country as a whole, including all it's people, which isn't fair no matter which country you're talking about.


Well... Bush is still there, so the majority feels that way. And in this world the minority doesn't count. Right? That's the american way.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2004 12:46 pm 
Offline
Insomniac Speed Demon
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2004 10:23 pm
Posts: 1193
Location: Rotterdam, Netherlands
Yes, it's the AMERICAN way, it's not the democratic way.

_________________
Image
-------
Denying people their rights because the majority votes for it is not democracy.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2004 9:54 pm 
Offline
Canadian Pundit
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 24, 2004 8:25 am
Posts: 445
Location: Ontario, Canada
As a humourous addendum to this discussion, I present a map I found which succintly shows the political and moral differences in North America these days.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2004 11:05 pm 
Offline
Knight Status
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2003 6:55 am
Posts: 367
Location: Ferry Boat
which color means which moral side?

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 5:13 am 
Offline
Royal Servant Status
User avatar

Joined: Fri Oct 08, 2004 7:26 pm
Posts: 119
Location: Michigan, USA
Actually, Spikey, that is the democratic way, if I'm understanding you correctly. You were making reference to Gronagor's statement which follows, correct?

Gronagor wrote:
...in this world the minority doesn't count. Right? That's the american way.


Now, I'm not arguing that you are wrong in your criticism of the U. S., but the most basic and fundamental definition of democracy is "government by the people; especially : rule of the majority". So, if the majority has elected Mr. Bush to a second term of the presidency, then that is the democratic way. People often forget that the word 'democracy' does not mean 'total equality for all people'. It is simply a method or theory of government in which the majority are supposed to have the final say in how the government is run and what services it should provide. A total democracy is impossible, of course, but even if it were possible democracy still wouldn't necessarily be the best form of government, and needless to say it would hardly be a utopia. For example, you all know the story of Socrates' death: Socrates was put on trial in Athens for "corrupting" the youth with his new and strange (to the Athenians) philosophical opinions, and was tried before a jury of 501 jurors culled from the common male citizens of Athens. Socrates pleaded his case and lost with a 281 to 220 vote in favour of his execution. Almost all of us nowadays would think this was the wrong decision on the jury's part, but nonetheless it was still a democratic decision in principle.

But let me make it clear that I am claiming neither that Bush's re-election is equivalent to Socrates' trial on a moral level, nor that the outcome of the democratic election which kept him in the presidency is best for the world. I always thought it an interesting philosophic political notion that hypothetically the establishment of an absolute ruler or supreme dictator could be a better form of government than democracy, provided that the dictator in question know how to implement the most just and lawful government possible and that he have the will and ability to do so. Pragmatically, of course, this could never happen in the current state of mankind, but it's an interesting thing to ponder.

And on a different matter altogether, I would like to say that I do take issue with some of Gronogor's, I find slightly insulting, imputations concerning America and it's people. I, in fact, will take offense at your or anyone else's insinuation that the American populace is deserving of the world's derision and general contempt. The Russian people, as a whole, were never treated like 'dirt' by us, as you so glibly proclaim. In the era of McCarthyism, communists in general and those with communist leanings were certainly unpopular with the American people and singled-out by the American government for investigation (for a while), but the Russian people and other peoples who were being mistreated and ill-governed under the Soviet Union's dominion were always sympathetically considered by the vast majority of our citizenry. You can certainly disagree with how our government combated the Soviet Union, and even disagree with the majority of Americans who supported most of our government's handling of that conflict (the exceptions being Vietnam, and a few other smaller operations). But to claim that we as a whole treated Russians poorly or held them in general contempt is ludicrous and unfounded. Likewise with your insinuation about Arab individuals' treatment in America following the 9/11 (or 11/9 if you prefer) catastrophe as being particularly "disturbing". I was actually expecting many more misguided 'retaliatory' attacks against Muslims and Middle Easterners after the World Trade Center attacks, but I happened to misjudge many of my fellow countrymen. The number of such attacks since the Trade Center fell are minuscule at the worst, and I have heard no story of any Mosque being fire-bombed in America by right-wing vigilantes. The American people have been extremely tolerant of Muslims in the last three-to-four years, even to the point of erring, e.g. in respect to certain public schools in California adding 'Islamic cultural immersion' studies to their elementary education curricula. Maybe that doesn't sound so bad, but when you consider that young children are being taught to memorize verses from the Koran (Qu'ran), and have to even participate in mock Muslim religious pilgrimages while dressed in Islamic religious garments, it's actually down-right un-American. However, if you are referring to the prisons at Guantanamo Bay or the 'Patriot Act' as the "disturbing" treatment of Arabs in America, that is a different subject altogether. The American people have little intimate knowledge of or direct influence over either of those policies, despite what many claim.

I hate to engage in 'ad hominem', or in this case rather 'ad gentem' attacks, but your country, South Africa, has hardly had a sterling reputation when it comes to human rights. If you actually believe people of African descent are treated worse in America than in post-Apartheid South Africa, I must say that you really don't know what you are talking about. Modern America has no large racial divide as exists still today in your country. Over 140 years have passed since the civil war was fought and blacks began to gain their civil rights in America, and today there is no longer any racism in mainstream American public opinion. In contrast, Apartheid was abolished in South Africa not quite 15 years ago, and the human and civil rights abuses of the government-sanctioned Apartheid policy were much more severe than those which existed in the southern states of America before the Civil Rights Movement in the 1960's. I also seriously doubt, to the point of near certainty, that inter-racial marriages are more common in South Africa than in the United States. In fact, without the United States' costly support of economic sanctions against the Apartheid government in South Africa, little might have changed there. Perhaps you hold America to a higher standard than your own country? All I can say is, don't be so eager to scoff at the American people and their good will.

I'm sorry if this post seems unduly hostile, and I fully respect the forum moderators' right to remove it if considered too inflammatory, but I felt compelled to respond because, as an American, I was offended by Gronagor's remarks. This is especially so because I was under the impression that the forums would moderate such generalizing charges as have been levelled by Gronagor. A particular politically based thread that I started earlier, which was by all means less inflammatory than this one, has already been locked and deleted from the forums without explanation, so I'm feeling a bit beset or 'beleaguered', if you will, by the massive anti-American deluge of sentiments. That's all. My rant is now finished; do with it what you will.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 5:49 am 
Offline
Royal Servant Status
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2004 5:11 am
Posts: 108
Amen.

Even if that gets deleted, I'm glad that I had the chance to read it. I've been reading those posts and thinking "I'm new here, I'll keep my mouth shut," but thank you, Vipt.

I'm a U.S. citizen, I'm married to a woman of a different race, and I find such situations are very common here.

I also remember the Cold War. Russians citizens were viewed with the utmost sympathy by Americans. Soviet defectors were treated as instant celebrities, and every other American film from that period featured Russian heroes in defiance of their government.

After the 9/11 attacks, I heard about one or two acts of violence towards Muslims nationally. But by and large my experience was that the community and the individuals made an effort to reach out, make friends with, and understand their Muslim countrymen.

That, at least, has been my experience.


Last edited by Parhelion on Tue Nov 09, 2004 6:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 5:53 am 
Offline
Canadian Pundit
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 24, 2004 8:25 am
Posts: 445
Location: Ontario, Canada
One point of clarification Vipt: Your assertion that "certain public schools in California adding 'Islamic cultural immersion' studies to their elementary education curricula" is not quite true. While it is the case that some California schools include Islam in history courses, there is no "religious indoctrination" as you have outlined. A complete explanation is found here.

About the rest of your post: I suspect that much of the anti-American sentiment (thankfully very little) is simply a knee-jerk reaction brought on by personal disappointment at the U.S. election outcome and incomplete knowledge of the facts. I urge people to keep their emotions in check. Whenever I post on a potentially controversial topic I always follow a couple of rules: don't state belief as fact; keep a level head. Please play nice, everyone; this thread is too interesting to be deleted. Besides, I've never had one of my threads deleted and I don't intend to start now. :)

Other than that, I think your post is very thought-provoking and I'm in almost total agreement.


Last edited by Charlemagne on Tue Nov 09, 2004 6:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 51 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group