What are the limits of adventure games?

[Charlemagne]

What are the limits of adventure games?

About 30 years ago the Club of Rome published a seminal, if pessimistic, study on the sustainability of industrial civilisation called The Limits to Growth. Similarly, I wonder what are the limits to growth of adventure games; how far can the medium be pushed? How many of the accepted constraints of adventure games are inherent in the medium and how many are merely psychological? Consider death or the passage of time in the context of a game like Grim Fandango. How many "rules" did that game break?

Unfortunately, as with most art forms, it's almost impossible to predict in which new or revolutionary directions it can be taken. Who could have forseen impressionism or cubism before the impressionists and cubists? Nonetheless, do technical considerations impose some kind of limit on just how far the adventure game can go in terms of storytelling, puzzles, plot or anything else? If so, what might its ultimate form be? How many rules have yet to be broken?

And to Vildern: All that matters is that you're true to yourself. Rock on, man!

[PotatoSlayer]

owe so many words

[Charlemagne]

owe [sic] so many words

Once again, PotatoSlayer, you've awed me with your insightful comments and thought-provoking criticism. I don't expect everyone will agree with me, but a cheap one-liner doesn't say much about what you disagree with.

[PotatoSlayer]

i don't really think that it's fair to put limits on adventure games, once you limit something and only think in that mind set that's as far as you'll ever take it. hmmm well that's 2 lines

[Charlemagne]

If you re-read my post you'll see that I'm not proposing putting limits on adventure games. I'm pondering (and inviting discussion on) whether or not limits even exist, and if they do, what form they might take. I think it's a Good Thing to push the boundaries of the accepted adventure game paradigm. That's how art evolves.

[PotatoSlayer]

im illogical

[Charlemagne]

You call the publishers "pessimistic", well another word i would use would be close minded.

Arrrrgh!! Didn't you read what I wrote?? I didn't call the game publishers pessimistic! The Limits to Growth is a pessimistic study. The study concluded that industrial civilisation would collapse within 100 years due to exhaustion of natural resources. The rest of your statements are specious.

[PotatoSlayer]

come on are you really gonna throw away everything i said just becuase of that one error?  Damit you know what i meant lala la hope this is more than one line lalalala

[Charlemagne]

come on are you really gonna throw away everything i said just becuase of that one error?

Yes I am. You're setting up a straw man.

Damit you know what i meant lala la hope this is more than one line lalalala

No, actually I don't. You're "arguments" are completely illogical. Never mind. I'm not going to debate this anymore with you.

[PotatoSlayer]

there happy? i tried to put some effort in and contribute and what do you do you shut me down do you know what say good bye to my well thought out paragraph guess i couldn't expect a can...never mind im not gonna say it

[Charlemagne]

All right. I apologise for my last post. Unilaterally deciding to end a discussion is never a good thing. However, I still think you were arguing a straw man. I'll be happy consider any other thoughs you have.

Truce, OK?

[PotatoSlayer]

Ok truce im just trying to get this straight though, you're asking how far adventure games can be pushed before they hit a limit, am i correct?  i'm trying to say that there's no point in asking because once you get in the state of mind where there are limits that's all you'll find.  I don't know maybe im being too phylisophical

[Blackthorne519]

Unfortunately, as with most art forms, it's almost impossible to predict in which new or revolutionary directions it can be taken. Who could have forseen impressionism or cubism before the impressionists and cubists? !

Interestint point.  Sometimes, I think pushing the envelope today is so cliched, and instead of being cutting edge, it's dull.  Like Marilyn Manson, for instance.  Yawn - he's not pushing any envelopes.  He's a boring prep in a different outfit.  Same shit, different diety.  (I'm putting that on a T-Shirt)

Finding the boundries, growing isn't always about being "extreme".  It's about being outside the box, and doing things a little differently.  I have a billion ideas for adventure games, but sometimes I think they've already been done.  Now, this might sound a little callous and mean, (and I won't pass full judgment until I buy and play it) but "Al Emmo" sounded like Leisure Suit Larry meets Freddy Pharkas to me.  That was my first impression - Larry in the west.  It's hard to come up with an original plot for anything though.  If I did a western game, it'd probably be about an assistant horse wrangler who wanted to be a Cowboy.  Hmmm.....sounds like 'The Book of Three' in a desert with humour.  Damn.  Oh well.

Anyway, it is hard to find that edge on things, isn't it?

Bt

[Charlemagne]

Anyway, it is hard to find that edge on things, isn't it?Bt

Agreed. Figuring out the most "cutting edge" or revolutionary game at the moment, and thus the present "boundary" of the medium, is probably next to impossible. You could ask 10 people and they'd likely name 10 different games. Let me re-phrase my initital ideas.

Entertainment value aside, an adventure game--textual, graphical or otherwise--is an implicit social contract. The creator agrees to provide a certain type of immersive experience, with certain parameters, to the player, who agrees to conduct himself within those boundaries for the sake of plot, puzzles, etc. I'm curious about ways in which that contract's parameters might be altered that have never been tried.

Paradigm shifts have happened before. The largest and most obvious one was the change from textual to graphical adventures in the early-to-mid 80s. Suddenly, players were absolved of the need to use their minds to generate the scene described on the screen. Some consider this a good thing, some don't. (I have to admit, when I played the first graphical Zork game what I saw on the screen couldn't remotely measure up to what I had imagined.) So what's the next step? What's the final step? Is there one? Is another paradigm shift waiting in the wings somewhere?

Now, this might sound a little callous and mean, (and I won't pass full judgment until I buy and play it) but "Al Emmo" sounded like Leisure Suit Larry meets Freddy Pharkas to me.

Funny. I thought the same thing. Of course, I'm also reserving judgment until I've played it. That was just my first impression.

[Alias]

What people need to do is make games like broken sword 3, it was one of the most unique adventure games I ever played, now please dont make more games in that style because it would ruin the experience. People just dont know whats left. In fact I dont know whats left.

BT> How about sharing those ideas?  ;)

Erpy or any other admin> I think this topic is worthy of its own thread, would it be okay with Charlemagne of course.  ;)

[Erpy]

I second Reptile's notion about this subject possibly deserving a separate thread.

I have a billion ideas for adventure games, but sometimes I think they've already been done.  Now, this might sound a little callous and mean, (and I won't pass full judgment until I buy and play it) but "Al Emmo" sounded like Leisure Suit Larry meets Freddy Pharkas to me.  That was my first impression - Larry in the west.  It's hard to come up with an original plot for anything though.  If I did a western game, it'd probably be about an assistant horse wrangler who wanted to be a Cowboy.  Hmmm.....sounds like 'The Book of Three' in a desert with humour.

Hey, I'll actually go as far as to agree with you. To some degree that is. Now here's an interesting notion about something else you said. You mentioned having a billion ideas for games...but some of them may have already been done. That's exactly how things went when AGD1 initially wrote the design document. At that point, she never heard of Freddy Pharkas before and she had quite a few ideas inspired by the place she lived and grew up...Arizona. The idea of an adventure game based in old-time Arizona was only the next step.

Granted, it may not be the next big thing in pushing the envelope, but at the same time, if one keeps in mind the fact that a team's future is strongly related to how well their initial product is received AND the fact AGDI has delivered us a fanbase whose common trait is an interest in classic-style p&c adventures, I can see definitely see the motivations behind the direction taken.

[Angelus3K]

I agree Reptile, Broken Sword 3 had an excellant interface and actually made the 3D adventure game style work where all others had failed!

[Alias]

I agree Reptile, Broken Sword 3 had an excellant interface and actually made the 3D adventure game style work where all others had failed!

''The game that will reshape the way we think about the adventure genre''

No game as even touched where this game is yet. I doubt developers would take a rist like revolution did and make a blockbuster.  >:

[Blackthorne519]

Hey, I'll actually go as far as to agree with you. To some degree that is. Now here's an interesting notion about something else you said. You mentioned having a billion ideas for games...but some of them may have already been done. That's exactly how things went when AGD1 initially wrote the design document. At that point, she never heard of Freddy Pharkas before and she had quite a few ideas inspired by the place she lived and grew up...Arizona. The idea of an adventure game based in old-time Arizona was only the next step.

See, though, I think good research into a game, particularily in a niche market like adventure games, you would have to be aware of almost all popular games that are out there in your market.  A game set in Arizona is a great idea - what a backdrop for great art and such, and the cultural history of the foundation of that state is some great stuff.  See, when I'm working on my original game idea, I'm very aware of what the history of my subject is, as well as it's overall relavance to the adventure gaming community.  Research does that... I'm probably not going to create a pirate adventure game, and set it off the coast of Africa, because even if I change the setting, it's still gonna remind people of Guybrush Threepwood running around.  Hell, if I wanted to do something funny and more original, I'd do one set in ancient Japan, about a poop shoveler that wants to be a Samurai.   Wait....... nah.... see, stories can almost always be divided into simple sects.  It's always an underdog wanting to be a big hero.  What about a game where you're a big hero and you become a poop-smith?  Well, shoveling poop isn't that exciting, and really - you can't do much with it.

Also, it all depends on how you approach it, too.  If you're doing a work that derivative, giving a little wink and nod to the source is only appropriate.  That puts the game on an edge where they KNOW it's not something totally original at face value, but it's depth and expansion on themes said in different games change the value.   For instance, maybe my Poop-Shoveling Samurai wanna be says at one point, "Hah.  You fight like a monkey!" and looks AT the screen.   It's a nod that says, "I'm totally aware Monkey Island is one of the awesomest games ever, and thanks for inspiring me."

Anyhow, I'm always concerned with making my ideas somewhat new, interesting and fun, but never getting too pretentious as to think it's groundbreaking new work.

Bt

[Snake2715]

Good read guys seriously.

Do you think something along the lines of what Nintendo is doing with its new DS (Dual Screen or Designers System) is a more logical approach?

I mean do you think we need to change the way we interact with the games we play? Thus giving us new experiences?

I mean the new handheld is just itching for Adventure type games as it has the typical control method plus, touch, voice, etc.  Heck even the Dual screen aspect could lend itself in some way to the Adventure game.

Its also interesting to see even though we have a limited audience with the adventure game genre. Console companies such as Nintendo and Konami are bringing these two games to the portable that look very much like adventure games.

Nintendos Another or Another Code:


Short Japan commercial
http://www.nintendo.co.jp/ds/anoj/

Pics of the game:
http://www.itmedia.co.jp/games/articles ... 028_2.html


And Konamis Lost in BLue:
http://www.gamespot.com/ds/adventure/su ... media.html

I have never looked forward to a portable "Game system" more. And actually I am pretty excited about all the possibilities it brings.

[Alias]

BT> I know how it feels when you come up with a great story line and characters but then realize people might think its ripped or ideas used from a different game.

[Gronagor]

Thinking... just keeping it simple, without 'breaking the boundaries'.

1) The protagonist doesn't have to be human. Heck, we don't even have to understand what 'it' or any character are saying.

2) Why does the protagonist have to be a loser (especially at work)... why not a super-rich guy who could buy anything he wants. ie. Gates goes to Minortown and find his money means nothing. Ok... nothing too original there.

3) ...

But agreed. Look at the number of other amateur adventure games being released daily. Pretty sure someone have done something similar to any idea one gets.

[Alias]

I agree, some people at AGS that make short games (one hour games) have decent ideas but not enough artists to do the work. Its almost impossible to do something fresh and new when every topic for an adventure game has been taken.  :\

[Pidgeot]

Good read guys seriously.

Do you think something along the lines of what Nintendo is doing with its new DS (Dual Screen or Designers System) is a more logical approach?

I mean do you think we need to change the way we interact with the games we play? Thus giving us new experiences?

I mean the new handheld is just itching for Adventure type games as it has the typical control method plus, touch, voice, etc.  Heck even the Dual screen aspect could lend itself in some way to the Adventure game.
<snip>

The DS is indeed a VERY suitable system for adventure games, thanks to the stylus - and with the microphone, you could potentially draw the player even further into the experience by using voice recognition to talk to NPCs.

Of course, you most likely won't get speech - at least not without voice synthesis, which I don't think will be all that good in anything but Japanese - but we've played for years without it, so it shouldn't be a problem.

[Blackthorne519]

Off topic: I want somebody to Translate the Ganbare Goemon games for the SNES that were never released in the US.  I loved Legend of The Mystical Ninja.......


Bt