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 Post subject: A pseudo-controversial question.
PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 9:28 pm 
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A while back, in my "QFG2 era" thread Radiant noted that Erasmus was a philosopher, not a wizard, and he didn't live in Germany. Realising that that was about the extent of my knowledge of him too, I went to the library and picked up a book on his life, writings and influence. (First and foremost he was a theologian, and really, an underrated figure in the history of Western Christendom these days. Around 1517, the year of Martin Luther's rise to prominence, Erasmus was called "the greatest man of Germany". He was born in Gouda, but did live in Germany on several occasions.)

As I was reading it I had an "a-ha!" moment that actually had nothing to do with Erasmus. This was the passage I just read:

"The ideal of the true Christian is to rise from the visible world to the invisible. Erasmus was deeply imbued with the truth of Jesus' words: 'The flesh is of no profit, it is the spirit that gives life' and 'But the hour is coming and now is at hand when true worshippers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth.'" (emphasis mine)

Is the character of The Father from KQ2VGA meant to be a religious or quasi-religious figure? I don't know why I didn't pick up on the Christian wording earlier.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 10:34 pm 
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Erasmus was quoting a well known Bible passage:
"God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth.” - John 4:24

I'm afraid I haven't played KQII+, but does it say he's supposed to be worshipped? I would have thought that would have religious connotations regardless of one's knowledge of the Bible... Or was it some reference to spirit and truth? If it's merely the usage of the word Father itself, I would have though that was a well-enough known metaphor for God, as in "our Father in heaven" and so forth... *shrugs*

It's also a word one commonly uses to describe the paternal parent...

Maybe I'm completely missing the point because of not playing the game in question.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2005 12:24 am 
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KQII+'s Father didn't strike me as religious. His followers obey him out of fear or greed, or both, not out of any kind of reverence. And while he's powerful, he's not any sort of god; after all, he's trying to become like a god, and he's not there yet.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2005 2:20 am 
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The word "Father" is such a common, ordinary word, and it's Christian usage us such a specific one, that I don't see any reason to make the connection.  That would be like saying that the "Grandma" in KQ2 is supposed to represent Grandma Moses, the American artist Anna Mary Robertson.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2005 7:56 am 
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From what I vaguely remember about KQ2++, the Father was basically the leader of a cult (the one Manannan and Mordack were a part of, iirc). "Father" is a common term for that sort of thing.

But my memory is really bad, and my imagination is way too active, so I have no idea what is real and what isn't in my memories anymore. :p


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2005 9:23 am 
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Not really a cult, more like a small cabal of evil and power-hungry manipulants that seem to have a grudge against Graham's family - usually referred to as the Black Cloak Society.
Members include Hagatha, Manannan, Al-Hazred and Shadrack. Caldaur is a former member, and seems powerful enough to avoid reprisals.
As far as I know, it's never implied that Mordack, Lolotte or the witch from KQ1 were members (well, it would be kind of lame to have all bad guys related, no?). Shadrack doesn't ever appear except in a letter to Al-Hazred afaik, so it's hard to know anything about him. I do believe it's obvious that Al-Hazred is not a magician of any kind, so that seems not to be a criterium.

Oh and yes, The Father is the leader thereof. Whether he is the actual biological father of all members seems implausible. However, Mordack is Manannan's brother despite having a lot younger appearance, so he's probably been hitting the nightingales pretty hard. Al-Hazred could be a relatively young member of the society.

Member roster -
Hagatha (presumed dead, Graham caused her fall out of a fifth story window)
Manannan (presumed cat)
Mordack (presumed dead, defeated by Graham in magical duel)
Caldaur (left society, has been dead for ages but that doesn't bother him)
Al-Hazred (lifetime imprisonment seems likely)
The Father (still scheming around somewhere, judging from the future vision in KQ2+)
Shadrack (location unknown)

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2005 1:13 pm 
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Yeah... the Father is often used to describe someone who started something or a creator...

Guess AGD2 would be the Father and AGD1 the Mother.  :p Or otherway around if they copy that 'The Avengers' movie.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2005 5:41 pm 
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Kloreep wrote:
KQII+'s Father didn't strike me as religious. His followers obey him out of fear or greed, or both, not out of any kind of reverence. And while he's powerful, he's not any sort of god; after all, he's trying to become like a god, and he's not there yet.


I know people who revere out of fear.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2005 11:50 pm 
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As far as I know, it's never implied that Mordack, Lolotte or the witch from KQ1 were members (well, it would be kind of lame to have all bad guys related, no?).


Well, Mordack is Manannan's brother (the whole reason KQ5 exists is because of KQ3) and I'm sure there is reference to him in the game in a letter or something. But yeah, it's never been said bluntly that he was part of the BCS. I just assumed he was, being Mordack's brother and all.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2005 5:41 am 
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Interesting points everyone. When I found that passage in my book I could suddenly imagine The Father as a sort of evil version of John the Baptist: a wise and charismatic priest with a cadre of followers, and, as Radiant pointed out, an undisclosed grudge against Graham's family. Unlike Kloreep, I don't see any reason to believe he's seeking an apotheosis. Rather, he seems more like a spiritual leader his followers obey partially out of fear of retribution. Their religion and its cult, ie. its external observance, if they even have one, would be interesting to speculate on especially in light of the other religious references in the game. For example, does The Father and the Black Cloak Society have anything to do with the werewolf-monks at the church? How is their religion different from Christianity, on which it seems to be based. I guess we'll never know, since such discussions are verboten here. ;)

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2005 7:16 am 
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Charlemagne wrote:
Interesting points everyone. When I found that passage in my book I could suddenly imagine The Father as a sort of evil version of John the Baptist: a wise and charismatic priest with a cadre of followers, and, as Radiant pointed out, an undisclosed grudge against Graham's family.

Perhaps, but it also stand to reason that 'The Father' also has power as well.  He may be charismatic, but he does have the force to meet out his vengence with.

We also have to remember that The Father is a creation of Daniel Stacey, who imported previous characters into a new set of cannon.  The reason for his grudge would be the creation of Daniel Stacey.  In the King's Quest Companion book for example, it is Gerwain (Spelled like that in the book) who recounts the adventures of King's Quest II.  

All matters of the Father are basically Fan Fiction at this point, and all referances and such could only be ascertained from the source, Mr. Stacey - who doesn't seem to discuss this much around these parts.

Simply, our delving into the reasons behind all this are speculations on a Fan Fiction.  For all I know, you (Charlemagne) could be doing more educated research into the thought process of The Father than Stacey did.  He could just simply be a Villain.  His motivation, or structure of the "BCS" could be inconsequential.  I know that he has written a King's Quest III story/script, and perhaps AGDI will do THEIR VGA version of it.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2005 9:06 am 
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lol man I think you're overthinking this whole thing.  I think its only a character and Father just sounds cool.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2005 9:12 am 
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Blackthorne519 wrote:
[Perhaps, but it also stand to reason that 'The Father' also has power as well.  He may be charismatic, but he does have the force to meet out his vengence with.

We also have to remember that The Father is a creation of Daniel Stacey, who imported previous characters into a new set of cannon.  The reason for his grudge would be the creation of Daniel Stacey.  In the King's Quest Companion book for example, it is Gerwain (Spelled like that in the book) who recounts the adventures of King's Quest II.  

All matters of the Father are basically Fan Fiction at this point, and all referances and such could only be ascertained from the source, Mr. Stacey - who doesn't seem to discuss this much around these parts.


Good point. Perhaps in analysing the character of The Father, what I'm really doing is anlaysing the mind of Daniel Stacy. I've never read the King's Quest Companion so I have no other points of reference, unfortunately. I'd love to hear from Mr. Stacey on the subject, nonetheless.

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Simply, our delving into the reasons behind all this are speculations on a Fan Fiction.  For all I know, you (Charlemagne) could be doing more educated research into the thought process of The Father than Stacey did.  He could just simply be a Villain.  His motivation, or structure of the "BCS" could be inconsequential.  I know that he has written a King's Quest III story/script, and perhaps AGDI will do THEIR VGA version of it.


I'm not doing research, per se, though I have on occasion, as in the QFG2 era thread. Last year I wrote that science and mathematics are too important to leave to the scientists and mathematicians; everyone should have a basic understanding of both disciplines. I study history, philosophy and theology for the same reason. They are simply too important to leave to the historians, philosophers and theologians. And you raise some good points BT.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2005 9:33 am 
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Charlemagne wrote:
I'm not doing research, per se, though I have on occasion, as in the QFG2 era thread. Last year I wrote that science and mathematics are too important to leave to the scientists and mathematicians; everyone should have a basic understanding of both disciplines. I study history, philosophy and theology for the same reason. They are simply too important to leave to the historians, philosophers and theologians. And you raise some good points BT.


That's so damn true.  Studying both diciplines is important, because people will always have different slants on the same subjects.  I guess any kind of education is research, to a degree.  It's an understanding that works it way towards a truth.  

Anyway, I'm glad there's someone like you who POSTS stuff like this.  Not the gobs of inane rubbish that CAN clutter up boards.  Not that the inane stuff doesn't have it's place, it's just nice to have a discussion at a level slightly higher than OMG WTF.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2005 10:05 am 
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That's so damn true.  Studying both diciplines is important, because people will always have different slants on the same subjects.  I guess any kind of education is research, to a degree.  It's an understanding that works it way towards a truth.


Personally, I think that knowledge of all five disciplines, as well as literature and art are essential aspects of an educated, well-rounded individual. And to that end I'm quite happy to engage anyone in a debate or discusson on science, mathematics, history, philosophy, theology, literature or art. Though, I have to admit, I may require some time to study the topic at hand. :)

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Anyway, I'm glad there's someone like you who POSTS stuff like this.  Not the gobs of inane rubbish that CAN clutter up boards.  Not that the inane stuff doesn't have it's place, it's just nice to have a discussion at a level slightly higher than OMG WTF.


Wow. I really appreciate the endorsement Blackthorne! In general, I think most people say to themselves "Post by Charlemagne? I think I'll pass. *click!*". It's really nice to know that some people actually read and consider the things I write. Of course, I've also occasionally made posts of the OMG WTF!!!! type. :D

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2005 10:17 am 
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For example, does The Father and the Black Cloak Society have anything to do with the werewolf-monks at the church? How is their religion different from Christianity, on which it seems to be based.


No, the two organisations are not related. The werewolf cult of the church is the result of a bonding between the monks and local spirits that inhabited the nearby woods. I don't think the monks' religion was different from the typical medieval form of Christianity. It's hard to argue it was a different religion if there's a bible and a cross to be obtained in the church.

The BCS, in Wookie's canon, is (if I recall correctly) mostly about an organisation that's centered around The Father and the belief/assumption that he will eventually obtain the power he's after. Most of its members are people in positions of power in different places of the world. The common motivation is most likely keeping hold of this position. Membership of the BCS would be a mutual advantage; for the Father (who'd be the ruler of Daventry) he'd have an ally in charge of a part of the world; meaning he'd have influence in that area without the need for direct interferance. For the member, the advantage would be the fact they were more likely remain in their position, even after the ruler of another country gained deithy-like powers.

So for short, it's more likely a brotherhood who believes that The Father's vision of the future will eventually become reality, rather than a true spiritual group.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2005 11:16 am 
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The BCS, in Wookie's canon, is (if I recall correctly) mostly about an organisation that's centered around The Father and the belief/assumption that he will eventually obtain the power he's after.


Interesting. And what sort of power does he want? Does The Father wish to become a god, as Kloreep suggested, or does he simply seek political power?

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Most of its members are people in positions of power in different places of the world. The common motivation is most likely keeping hold of this position. Membership of the BCS would be a mutual advantage; for the Father (who'd be the ruler of Daventry) he'd have an ally in charge of a part of the world; meaning he'd have influence in that area without the need for direct interferance.


Influence without the need for direct influence? Do you mean that the other lands under BCS rulership would be de facto suzerainties of Daventry, or simply that their leaders would follow The Father's orders without public acknowledgement?

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For the member, the advantage would be the fact they were more likely remain in their position, even after the ruler of another country gained deithy-like[sic] powers.


Of course, the old adage for a situation like this is 'absolute power corrupts absolutely'. Is that what you mean to say about the other members of the BCS? But if The Father became a god, then why would he need lackeys to rule for him? Again: does he, in fact, seek apotheosis?

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So for short, it's more likely a brotherhood who believes that The Father's vision of the future will eventually become reality, rather than a true spiritual group.


Ah! But the question now is, what sort of future and what sort of reality are we talking about? And what, exactly, is The Father to both of these? I would love to read "Wookie's canon", as you put it, simply to set the record straight. You claim that they are not a "true spiritual group" yet your comments offer intriguing possibilities to the contrary.

I apologise if I'm over analysing the situation; it's part of my nature. :)

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2005 12:05 pm 
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Interesting. And what sort of power does he want? Does The Father wish to become a god, as Kloreep suggested, or does he simply seek political power?


The third book available in the library in Kolyma gives some details about Daventry's past, seen through Wookie's canon. The Father is a person from these ancient times. He's not immortal in the true sense of the word; he simply uses his magical powers to prevent himself from aging. That's why he uses his powers sparingly for other purposes. He's after the power of the First King to add it to his own. This would not turn him into a deithy in the sense of becoming an omnipresent being, but he'd certainly become a force far more powerful than any djinn or wizard.

So what he craves is not merely political.

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Influence without the need for direct influence? Do you mean that the other lands under BCS rulership would be de facto suzerainties of Daventry, or simply that their leaders would follow The Father's orders without public acknowledgement?


It would basically mean he'd be able to pull strings in other countries without having to personally keep them under control. I'm not certain about his vision as far as nations go. He's far older than Daventry itself and the world probably looked a lot different when he was...young.

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But if The Father became a god, then why would he need lackeys to rule for him?


As I mentioned before, I don't think he'd gain such a thing as omnipresence.

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Ah! But the question now is, what sort of future and what sort of reality are we talking about? And what, exactly, is The Father to both of these? I would love to read "Wookie's canon", as you put it, simply to set the record straight. You claim that they are not a "true spiritual group" yet your comments offer intriguing possibilities to the contrary.


I'm not certain. From what we can read in the "legends"-book, the KQ world was very different in the ancient times from what it is presently. It's not unlikely The Father's vision, whatever that is, is closely related to the way the world was before the First King renounced his leadership and gave the rule of Daventry to his first knight, Granthithor. The Father deeply resented Legenimor's notion that their people should take a step back from their dominant position in the world, to be replaced by mere mortals without significant magical powers.

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