Some thoughts on the nature of charisma.

Message

Charlemagne · #1 Post by **Charlemagne** » Wed Apr 06, 2005 3:51 am

The concept of charisma is hugely undervalued in the modern world. These days any politician who can convince you that his brand of bullshit is better than the other guy's is called "charismatic" by media pundits and newspaper columnists. But have any of them ever stopped to think about what charisma really is? To the average bleary-eyed D&D-gamer it's a statistic that one may or may not be able to increase naturally over time (it depends on whether or not you're using the d20 system). To most other people it's a vague notion about being somehow attractive, well-known and well-spoken all at the same time. No one seems entirely sure what it is, but I've yet to meet someone who claims to possess it. No one, it would seem, is quite so presumptuous.

Over the last few days I've been watching the enormous outpourings of grief, faith and spirituality, from all around the world, at the death of Pope John Paul II. I know little of the man himself, and, as a non-Catholic, have no spiritual or religious connection to his death. Yet, above all others in the modern world, he, I believe, possessed real charisma in its truest form.

I've seen the pictures of his pilgrimmages around the world and one thing that never fails to amaze me is the way in which he seemed able to hold a crowd of millions in the palm of his hand. The CBC (Canadian Broadcasting Corporation) recently aired some candid footage of the pope's visit here in 1984. He was on his plane, between destinations, and a reporter nonchalantly asked him if he found his job difficult. His response that he was simply doing God's work bespoke a dignity, eloquence and grace that I thought had vanished with such luminaries as Winston Churchill and Martin Luther King, Jr. One gets the same sense that true charisma is an in-born force of personality from the interviews of people who met the late pontiff. Many have said that his warmth and humanity could be felt simply by being in the same room.

According to my handy copy of The Oxford Dictionary & Thesaurus "charisma" is derived from the Greek word for "favour". That's exactly what it is: a favour bestowed at birth upon a precious few with the ability to move millions, influence generations and change the course of history. Charisma is not something that one can gain from new makeup, a change in wardrobe, lessons in elocution or (perhaps most insulting of all) incrementing a meaningless statistic; it is an in-born, natural grace and something few of us can ever hope to possess. In the vulgar, modern world of soulless pop-culture icons, bullshit politicans and empty consumerist fetishes it is an offence to the truly great and charismatic of history to equate their gifts with simply being well-known or wealthy.

Def Zeppelin · #2 Post by **Def Zeppelin** » Wed Apr 06, 2005 5:06 am

I truly agree with you, I was watching clips of the pope and the word that popped in my head was "charismatic". He was such an awesomely amazing individual. One of the most amazing things I have heard about him is that he actually genuinely forgave the man that tried to kill him. That is just what an incredible, charismatic person would do. I really look up to him.

Blackthorne519 · #3 Post by **Blackthorne519** » Wed Apr 06, 2005 5:42 am

I've been told I have a lot of charisma. I've also been told I suck. Take your pick.

Bt

Charlemagne · #4 Post by **Charlemagne** » Wed Apr 06, 2005 5:56 am

I've been told I'm both a genius and a retard. I'm neither. I think that most people fit squarely between the extremes of mental prowess. A rare few, however, are gifted (or perhaps fated) to rise above the rest of us in one or more ways. Charisma is one of those ways. At least, that's what I think.

BT, I think you're humourous, persuasive and probably a good leader. I don't think you're charismatic in the same way as Winston Churchill or Martin Luther King, Jr. But then, few men are, or ever will be.

#5 Post by **Erpy** » Wed Apr 06, 2005 7:05 am

Charisma is, in my opinion, the ability to fascinate people in your surroundings without having to really try. It's a combination of appearance, way of speaking and probably other, less tangible, factors. I think natural grace is a very well-put way of defining it.

I too do think charisma is a gift, rather than something that can be learned.

Parhelion · #6 Post by **Parhelion** » Wed Apr 06, 2005 7:17 am

I've never thought of the pope as "charismatic" exactly. I would put him at a 14 or so in the d20 system. Higher marks for intelligence and wisdom, to be sure.

Kidding aside, I loved the pope dearly. As one who is Catholic though, I think people outside of the faith sometimes overestimate his celebrity factor. Millions of people gathered to him, not necessarily to "see the pope" but to take part in something . . . . spiritual for lack of a better word.

I realize what you're saying is that our definition of "charisma" is faulty, and I'm not trying to argue with you there, perhaps just to make a parallel point. I think what differentiates the truly great people you mentioned from the merely charismatic is, in each case, the fact they didn't use their gifts to aggrandize themselves, but pointed their greatness at something else in order to be servants of humanity.

Gronagor · #7 Post by **Gronagor** » Wed Apr 06, 2005 9:06 am

Well... I kinda disagree on a few points.

If the pope was 'famous' because of the charasmatic factor, it would mean that charisma is partly bestowed on someone. Himself because of his position. What do you know about the next pope? But I can promise you after a few years he'll be just as famous.

Think about the Royals. If they weren't born into the royal family they would have been VERY boring people. But many people always talk about their 'charisma'.

My point is that, although I agree with natural charisma (perhaps even genetic charisma), I do believe charisma also evolves through experiences, position in life and even the people you come in contact with.

For example: have you ever talked to someone who have seen the world? Someone who had a lot of interesting experiences in life. You could almost sense an overwhelming aura from such a person during conversation.
(ie. International Sport Stars)

Broomie · #8 Post by **Broomie** » Wed Apr 06, 2005 10:53 am

For example: have you ever talked to someone who have seen the world? Someone who had a lot of interesting experiences in life. You could almost sense an overwhelming aura from such a person during conversation.

Funnilly enough I was speaking to a Swedish neighbours of my friends who was around his house, claiming he's been everywhere and done nearly everything. I was naming random countries and he claims to have been to everyone, except for the majority of African countries I believe.

It was quite interesting, Gron. Usually when you get an old guy telling you he's done everything, I usually give out the frequent yawn or the point and run treatment, yet I was fascinated by what he had to say. You are correct, I did sense a overwhelming aura with the Swede.

I'd say I'm quite charasmatic (except for when I get a surprise call from Erpy on my birthday and I'm speechless) I can get people laughing quite easily with the way I speak, I change accents, speak extremely fast (which I believe is a gift, I can MC/freestyle better than all the "wiggas" in my year even though I hate that class of music. Oh yeah, and everytime I go to a family party (we have a huge family) the kareoke machine is always bought for me. And yes I usually sing every party, choosing an extremely fast song once. I was singing faster than Eminem: Without Me, clearly aswell.

I too do think charisma is a gift, rather than something that can be learned.

I do agree, I see people I know who just can't speak in front of people, whilst I have no problem. Confidence is a huge factor with charisma, I have alot of it and was even an actor for 4 years. Mainly to do with my voice. As I mentioned I can put on many accents/tones, I can sing and I hardly stutter at the appropiate time not to stutter. However, at the moment my voice really sucks as I've got the soarest throats I've ever had in my entire life, when I'm talking I sound like a zombie from Dawn of the Dead. [/code]

VampD3 · #9 Post by **VampD3** » Wed Apr 06, 2005 12:07 pm

I think I have a good Charisma at times. I can hold a crowd of people and fascinate them without hardly trying. I must just glow :lol but nice topic Charlemagne

Quest For Glory Fan · #10 Post by **Quest For Glory Fan** » Wed Apr 06, 2005 3:06 pm

heh after our high school cinderella play here we all went to the local YMCA and had a party. the plan was fairly simple, swim for 2 hours hang around a dinner table with kareoke (sp?) machines the other 2. Now the play was a musical and we had a lot of talent in the room. I however was the mime with the one line at the end. I geuss I'm more of a physical actor (or just a bad one).

Anyways the party starts and I sit on abalcony over looking the pool with some other folks because I'm not a big fan of swimming. people kept saying "well it's only 4 feet" or "If you come in we'll stay in the shallow end with you" I tried to explain that I could swim and my cottage is on a lake. I can swim the case was I just didn't want to, they responded with something along the lines of "too cool for swimming" and I felt pretty uncharismatic. however after all was said and done everyone's sitting around eating one of the stage guys fires up the kareoke (sp yet again) and has this great kermit voice (He sang a song about how "it's not easy being green") and we all had a grand time watching the event unfold but he went to eat and it was all quiet. I'm at a far table and I say to Joe beside me "psst Joe, I got an idea come with me to the front." So we sneak up there and outta nowhere you see Joe walk out from behiend the stand in the front and he says loudly to the room "First I was afraid I was petrified". and I came around another stand and continued "Kept thinking I could never live without you by my side" and after about 3 minutes I sat down again. My friend from the pool said "well you were too cool for the pool but I geuss you didn't have the will power to stay away from Aretha Franklin."

Anyways the point of that overly drawn out story was to show that Chrasima has nothing to do with being accepted or well liked as long as you're willing to belt out the occaisonal 70's tune in a room of 60 or so peers.

rosel1 · #11 Post by **rosel1** » Wed Apr 06, 2005 11:20 pm

I believe charisma can be attributed to people who put the needs of others above their own. To reiterate what Charlemagne wrote, charismatic people are genuinely loved by many; not because of fame or fortune, but because they care deeply.

In this day and age, politicians are constantly playing the same lines to their audience. They don't feel for the people. It's an act to win the election.

The truly selfless nature of the genuinely charismatic person is what makes charisma such a unique (and rare) quality. They are also very humble and modest people--seeing a need and fulfilling it without being asked.

I agree with both Erpy and Charlemagne. I believe that charisma is something you are born with. However, in some instances it can be acquired through life experience and service to mankind.

Gronagor · #12 Post by **Gronagor** » Thu Apr 07, 2005 6:44 am

I don't agree. Fame and fortune play huge roles in charisma. Just like any other thing that could possibly influence someone.

Only thing is how the person handles his situation. Some become snobs, greedy and whatever else you can think of. (You know... most popular kids in school type of snobs) Others grow with the situation... THEY become charismatic.

To explain what I said above. Ok, let's say the Pope was born with this gift. But if he wasn't chosen to be Pope (the normal people don't 'vote' for him, so chances were good) then you wouldn't have known him. Would that have meant he didn't have charisma?

Blackthorne519 · #13 Post by **Blackthorne519** » Thu Apr 07, 2005 3:19 pm

Gronagor wrote:I don't agree. Fame and fortune play huge roles in charisma. Just like any other thing that could possibly influence someone.

I agree with that - look at Paris Hilton. In the US, she's a major celebrity - yet she really does nothing. She's just the duaghter of a hotel magnate, who spends a lot of money - and has an internet sex tape. People think she has come kind of charisma - which I doubt they'd heap on her if she didn't have the name 'Hilton'.

Bt

Broomie · #14 Post by **Broomie** » Thu Apr 07, 2005 3:26 pm

In the US, she's a major celebrity - yet she really does nothing.

I thought she was a model? She's bigger in Japan aswell apparently.

Parhelion · #15 Post by **Parhelion** » Thu Apr 07, 2005 3:43 pm

On the far end of the spectrum, consider very evil people who have had the power to influence people. Hitler springs to mind. He obviously had charisma in that he held sway over millions through the power of his personality.

I think that charisma exists outside of any moral guidelines, and that the few people in history who have used their inborn abilities to really make the world a better place (Ghandi, the pope, Erpy, Martin Luther King, etc.) possessed something bigger than that.

Lucifiel · #16 Post by **Lucifiel** » Thu Apr 07, 2005 3:53 pm

Blackthorne519 wrote:
Gronagor wrote:I don't agree. Fame and fortune play huge roles in charisma. Just like any other thing that could possibly influence someone.
I agree with that - look at Paris Hilton. In the US, she's a major celebrity - yet she really does nothing. She's just the duaghter of a hotel magnate, who spends a lot of money - and has an internet sex tape. People think she has come kind of charisma - which I doubt they'd heap on her if she didn't have the name 'Hilton'.

Bt

It's not just that. The media enjoys creating "figures" that they can lavish praise/criticism on. Anyways, she's kinda dumb but that's probably 'cos she was "conditioned" not to think for herself and to be pampered.

To Bromios: what he probably means is she doesn't really do anything useful.

Broomie · #17 Post by **Broomie** » Thu Apr 07, 2005 4:15 pm

Alot of single or middle aged men find Paris very useful. Yet that's another story.

Senor Matt · #18 Post by **Senor Matt** » Fri Apr 08, 2005 12:16 am

Paris Hilton is not popular because of any charisma on her part. People like to hear about her for the same reason they watch shows like Jerry Springer or go to freak shows. So they can feel better about themselves by watching people who are clearly stupider and/or crazier than they are (or are at least presented as such). It's all a matter of comparison. People can look at people like Paris and her obvious shallowness and ignorance and think, "Well at least I'm not as bad as her".

For this same reason people like to hear about stars or religious figures doing stupid things as well because those people are put up on pedestals. And watching them fall off those pedestals makes people feel less guilty about their own failings or stupid acts because they can say to themselves, "see? this great person isn't any better than me! So I am justified in my stupid acts because everyone else is as bad as me".

But anyway those are my two bits. As for Charisma itself I feel that it is a mix of both inborn abilities and life experience. Just like Nature vs. Nurture, most psychologists agree it's a mix of both.

And I'm very glad that Charlemagne brought this topic up as it has been a long time since I've seen any kind of intellectual discussion on here. Go Charles!!!

Brainiac · #19 Post by **Brainiac** » Fri Apr 08, 2005 1:33 am

Senor Matt wrote:And I'm very glad that Charlemagne brought this topic up as it has been a long time since I've seen any kind of intellectual discussion on here. Go Charles!!!

Meh, who needs intellectual discussion when we can talk about games?

Kidding, kidding. I'm always glad to see deep discussions myself. I think I'll have to get my thoughts on this subject organized and chip in my two cents eventually.

Charlemagne · #20 Post by **Charlemagne** » Fri Apr 08, 2005 5:35 am

Gee, I was going to rebut Gronagor but you guys already did it for me so nicely. And thanks for the endorsement Senor Matt. I only hope you weren't being sarcastic.

Let me offer a little anecdote instead. The university I most recently attended had on the faculty the best professor, and the best teacher, I've ever had the pleasure of learning from. I met him even before I started, while I was on campus taking care of some administrative matters. He's a talkative, genial, older man with a constant smile on his face. I bumped into him outside the computer science office and we had a little chat about the programme, the courses offered, possibilities for employment, etc. There was something uncanny about his manner that made me really look forward to starting the semester.

A year or two on, and I decided to take a course he was teaching: artificial intelligence. There was not a single boring lecture in the entire semester. Unlike a couple of my courses, which were taught by professors with all the personality of a creamed eel, I really looked forward to AI class. Later in the year I discovered that, for years, his students had nominated him for the distinguished teaching award. He won on many occations. In retrospect, I think that he, Dr. Jim Jury, possessed real charisma. His innate ablility to engage students in the course material, even when potentially dry or boring, is nothing short of amazing. It has absolutely nothing to do with his fame or wealth.

Just because charismatic people may possess the ability to change history and influence millions doesn't always mean that they do.

Gronagor · #21 Post by **Gronagor** » Fri Apr 08, 2005 7:40 am

Parhelion wrote:On the far end of the spectrum, consider very evil people who have had the power to influence people. Hitler springs to mind. He obviously had charisma in that he held sway over millions through the power of his personality.

Hmmm... that's another discussion. 'What is Evil?'. Hitler would be, to me, be a modern Alexander the Great. Ok, he didn't conquer as many countries, but it's the same idea. Alexander did a lot of gruesome deeds, yet people praised him throughout history. They all attempted to do the same... Alexander, the Romans, Mongols, etc etc. To rule the world. Why would one be evil and the other one not?

Blackthorne519 · #22 Post by **Blackthorne519** » Fri Apr 08, 2005 1:12 pm

Gronagor wrote:
Parhelion wrote:On the far end of the spectrum, consider very evil people who have had the power to influence people. Hitler springs to mind. He obviously had charisma in that he held sway over millions through the power of his personality.
Hmmm... that's another discussion. 'What is Evil?'. Hitler would be, to me, be a modern Alexander the Great. Ok, he didn't conquer as many countries, but it's the same idea. Alexander did a lot of gruesome deeds, yet people praised him throughout history. They all attempted to do the same... Alexander, the Romans, Mongols, etc etc. To rule the world. Why would one be evil and the other one not?

The 'what is evil' question always raises flags and eyebrows in discussion. It brings into question the logic and basis of morals - which can vary from culture to culture. Hitler tried at a time when the world was untied under the media like never before; It took years and years until the full extent of Alexander The Great, The Mongols, The Huns, or the Roman's deeds came to light. People knew of the swath of destruction Hitler left on a massive scale like never before. With the proliferation of Margret Bourke-White's concentration camp photos, people saw, in more real "time" than ever, the ravages of war and the spoils of power. It's not to say that atrocious deeds much like the ones Hitler's regime committed never happened before. They did, but there was never enough written quickly, nor evidence had. Also, remember, Hitler is still VERY close in our memory - only 60+ years have passed - a generation. As history rolls on, who knows how he will be looked at.

Bt

Spikey · #23 Post by **Spikey** » Fri Apr 08, 2005 4:37 pm

I don't want to bore you all to death with social scientific approaches to charisma on the first day of my return.

Brainiac · #24 Post by **Brainiac** » Sat Apr 09, 2005 12:21 am

Spikey wrote:I don't want to bore you all to death with social scientific approaches to charisma on the first day of my return.

C'mon Spikey, with you around...it's never boring.

Besides, some of us like a little rational and intellectual discussion every now and then!

GamerGal · #25 Post by **GamerGal** » Sat Apr 09, 2005 1:30 pm

I have to agree with Charlemagne; and judging by some of the responses/posts, it seems very few people understand what charisma is, or what distinguishes a truly"charismatic" person from the everyday person, wealthy celebrity, suave (or slick) politician, or otherwise famous/infamous personality. They leave their mark on society, long after they're gone, unlike the celebrities and other (temporarily) famous people.

Those gifted with charisma seldom stand out for their looks, wealth, social status, etc. Indeed, what distinguishes them are intangible qualities which are hard to pinpoint or define. They have an effect on those in their presence, eliciting a response from all who meet them.

Winston Churchill was quite overweight, not at all handsome, and sometimes had an overbearing and gruff manner, but he was able to rally the people through England's darkest hour, and fill them with hope when there was little reason to believe they stood a chance against the forces which had already swallowed up huge parts of Europe.

Mohatma Gandhi, likewise, was a stooped little man in a loin cloth, who successfully ended a century of British rule in India through "peaceful resistance" rather than armed violence.

Abraham Lincoln swayed audiences and inspired confidence through the American Civil War. His famous words still move anyone reading them, yet he was far from attractive or a super celebrity.

Charisma is not always a positive force. In the wrong hands, it can be destructive and dangerous. Rasputin, Napoleon, Charlie Manson, Adolph Hitler were all said to be "charismatic", but they moved their followers to do the unthinkable.

But, positive or negative, charismatic people have one quality in common - those in their presence are never indifferent. They always inspire a response!

BTW: Once again, Charlemagne has provided this forum with an interesting and thought provoking subject. Excellent writing! Thanks

Some thoughts on the nature of charisma.

Some thoughts on the nature of charisma.

Discussion

Bore? Never!