How much would you pay for a Sierra Adventure Game Nowadays?

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#51 Post by **Anonymous Game Creator 2** » Tue Jul 01, 2008 3:52 am

Even so, people making duplicate copies of the game may well distribute it far and wide and get many more people to know about us. However that's going to be of very little benefit if it means we don't generate the money required to fund another commercial game, and everyone has the opinion that it's okay to download it as long as they have a 'good' excuse. This is entertainment. A luxury, not a necessity of life. What excuse could there possibly be?

I presume that your bank wage is provided by an employer. If so, then your wage will likely be paid on weekly basis like clockwork, and you probably don't need to worry about anything other than doing the work and getting paid for it. But in order to make games as a living we've had to quit everything else and take a very big risk. An employer doesn't pay us, the fans do. And if all the fans and potential customers are copying the game, then it's effectively the equivalent of stealing our paycheck.

We're not running a charity. We're trying to run a business and whether someone walks into a store and lifts a box from the shelf or downloads it via bit-torrent, it's the work and effort they're stealing from (the CD and packaging are relatively worthless). Following that logic, do you also walk into the cinema without buying a movie ticket every time you want to see a film? No, because the tickets still have a monetary value placed upon them, and you'd be putting yourself at the risk of being caught. You'd feel 'wrong' doing it, even if you think you should be allowed to since the film companies make such huge profits. Bit-torrent is really no different. It's just that nobody can see you downloading stuff from the privacy of your own home and that's why people justify it. In fact, bit-torrrent's even worse because of the whole 'sharing it with everyone and their mother' aspect.

I agree with the adaptation thing, but how do you do this with digital products? Whenever someone downloads it, they're getting an exact replica of the original. Some publishers (like the Russian and Chinese) undercut pirated versions by selling their own superior versions for around $4 USD a copy, but that's hardly a feasible solution for us.

Solarkid · #52 Post by **Solarkid** » Tue Jul 01, 2008 12:30 pm

So how about a steam-like interface?
The program Steam effectively removes all chance of piracy, also if you did it right and created a very small program that did not get in the way and didn't try to install unwanted junk on a user's computer, you may have a fool-proof solution.

It may seem like over kill for a small company like Himalaya to be using programs like steam, but to be honest, if you did it right i see no reason why people wouldn't take up to it, even if it was only for your games.

Also, i'm not suggesting you make it do as much as steam, it doesn't need to be a download client, simply a program which you log into and activate your game to Himalaya servers.

Of course, the real loser in my story is the manufacturer of the furnishings. So I would urge my friend to either destroy the cloned furnishings immediately, or else pay for them

Precisely, but you cannot possibly convince every person on Bit torrent to delete their downloaded game or buy the legit version. For this reason quite simply, it is undoubtable that AGD are loosing out because of piracy.
Dave

Gronagor · #53 Post by **Gronagor** » Tue Jul 01, 2008 12:53 pm

Can't really see how that makes sense???

The only people who doesn't lose out to piracy is:
1) Anime creators who uses 'pirate' downloaders to advertise their products. (The american guys who buy the rights for these series' in the end, lose quite a bit, but still earn a little bit which make it worth it. See next point)
2) Major production companies who knows that out of the 10 millions of people who would be watching/listening/using/playing their stuff, at least 30-40% would buy it. Which is enough.
3) People had no intention of selling their stuff to start out with, but suddenly realize they've hit a small gold mine and make money out of related stuff.

From a community of only 'thousands' of adventure gamers, you can't expect 30% to be acceptable.

I don't think you realize how many promising companies folded due to this problem.

If you really think about it, there's quite a number of movies that should have made it big, for example (just quickly thinking) 'Firefly'. Because of piracy they didn't make even close to what they should have, and the millions of fans who wanted a series of movies were dissapointed. Yeah... it didn't really meet all the expectations, but it still was a very good movie.

You may think you have all the right to pirate, and I agree in many circumstances many products are way overpriced. But in the end, you're screwing yourself. Although I'm not a big western fan, Al Emmo was an enjoyable game. The character could have become a pretty famous 'game figure'... could have...

Kloreep · #54 Post by **Kloreep** » Tue Jul 01, 2008 4:27 pm

Solarkid: Al Emmo is on a number of download services already, some may have such protection. Though I know others do not... and good for them, I say. All protections are ultimately crackable. I have no idea whether Steam's protection has been cracked, but it doesn't really matter if alternate copies are available. As someone else put it (can't remember who), whoever creates the copy protection has a limited amount of time. Crackers have potentially infinite time, and once it's cracked once, the torrents will inevitably go up.

Al Emmo would have ended up being pirated, one way or the other. All games do. Even Bioshock, which debuted a new version of Securom and looked like it might hold, got cracked and torrented after a matter of weeks. The biggest question, really, is whether a games company makes all their legitimate customers who aren't using pirated versions suffer through copy measures like CD checks or internet activation. That Himalaya did not, and instead released a retail version that crackers simply could not improve upon because there were no inconveniences to eliminate, was very classy IMO.

The best argument I can really come up with for the very existence of CD checks, activations, and all the crap that gets thrown into games is that it does prevent casual piracy - ie, someone installing their copy of a game on a friend's machine.

Best approach to piracy I've seen - both in attitude and in combating it - is Stardock. No copy protection on the game itself, but the update system does require the equivalent of a CD key. Thus, legitimate customers are inconvenienced once entering the code, and then have a very nice automatic system should the game be patched or otherwise updated (which is pretty often for Stardock's own games, at least). Pirates are not fought directly, but anyone trying to pirate, say, Galactic Civilizations II, and keep their version current, will go through heck trying to continually pirate new versions of the game, since stand-alone patchers are rarely released.

Unfortunately, I suppose that approach doesn't translate to adventure games. There's no need for play balancing and the like; ideally, the version first sold never needs to be patched.

techie775 · #55 Post by **techie775** » Tue Jul 01, 2008 5:03 pm

I said 20-30 dollars because I don't usually rush out to buy games the day they come out, habit. The one I do remember doing that cause I heard so many good things about it was Leisure Suit Larry 7. And I wasn't disappointed. I'm one those people who if I spend the money I expect the game to be worth having it right away, adventure game or not. To me $50 is alot for some of the adventure games I've played that weren't very exciting. But that's just my opinion.

Gronagor · #56 Post by **Gronagor** » Tue Jul 01, 2008 7:18 pm

Hmmm... personally I won't pay a dime for a 3D-shooter or even racing game. Especially those coming out now. They truelly haven't improved at all in the last 6-8 years.

I don't think there's any point talking about the piracy thing any more. The only fact is, the adventure game community failed the guys trying to bring back genre once again.

EZ · #57 Post by EZ » Tue Jul 01, 2008 10:38 pm

Solarkid: If you think Steam is somehow uncrackable, I'm afraid you need to do some more research. I promise you that every single game on Steam (including Half Life 2 and friends, which are exclusive to Steam) has been cracked very quickly. Bioshock took a number of days, not weeks, as reported above. Everything will always get pirated. The best piracy protections are rootkits (which are controversial and hence more likely to anger legitimate fans) and phone-home methods. Despite that, BOTH methods can still be cracked, as the 24-hour Windows Genuine Advantage fiasco proved.

AGD2: I apologize, I must be a poor communicator, because I think you quite nearly missed my point again. There seem to be a couple hot topics regarding piracy:

1) Whether or not companies (like Himalaya) are losing money.
2) Whether downloading a pirated game is morally reprehensible, wrong, etc.

These can be debated 'til you're blue in the face but ultimately the first is jsut impossible to prove and the second is a matter of beliefs, not facts. My point is the one you devoted one short paragraph to at the end of your long post. What I'm hoping you'll understand at some point is that single paragraph is where you should put all your attention to.

Whatever you might think of piracy and pirates, it's an unescapable reality. As you say, I get a paycheck from my employer, but you chose the more difficult path of small business. I respect that, but you must have known when you made that decision that not all businesses succeed. You must adapt, sir, not hate.

Don't hate pirates. Pirates are fans, every single one of them.

Prio · #58 Post by **Prio** » Tue Jul 01, 2008 11:54 pm

AGD is (attempting to) adapt to the reality: he's collecting information on the guilty parties for possible future use.

You just don't happen to like the adaptation, presumably because it seems so very mean to the pirate homiez.

#59 Post by **Anonymous Game Creator 2** » Wed Jul 02, 2008 12:42 am

My point is the one you devoted one short paragraph to at the end of your long post.

Yet, I see that you've made no attempt to address that particular paragraph with an alternate workable solution.

Don't hate pirates. Pirates are fans, every single one of them.

That's a bit of a generalized comment. My own definition of a fan is someone who supports our efforts, not someone who and assists in making it easy for other people to steal and distribute our work. Torrent downloaders know full well the negative impact that they're having on a small start-up like ours. Also, fans generally want to see more work produced in the future. But if people keep pirating it instead of buying it, then there can be no future products to buy OR pirate.

Prio's right. I see collecting IP's as the only recourse available. We don't have the money or time to launch some big campaign or incentive. So I see this as the only realistic way of trying to adapt to the problem. And your reaction to the collection of IP numbers is exactly what I'm banking on to make future potential pirates think twice before they download our games.

There's no need for copying it. If you want to try it out, download the demo. We made it quite large (the first act of the entire game) for that reason.

Brainiac · #60 Post by **Brainiac** » Wed Jul 02, 2008 2:35 am

I can't speak for everyone, but I can state that for me personally, I was hesitant to buy Al Emmo at first release simply because I'm a hoarder. I wanted that Collector's Edition. Unfortunately, I couldn't really justify that expense at the time. As a side-effect, knowing the CE existed meant I couldn't feel satisfied with the regular edition. Thus, instead of buying a copy, I bought nothing. I wonder if this was the case for anyone else - I'd imagine quite a few of those among the adventure gaming fandom are ardent collectors. Erpy certainly is, I'm sure, being the LUNAR fan he is.

Once AGD2 announced the price drop, I was right on top of it. Unfortunately, I'd just lost my position at the lab I was working at, so I STILL couldn't buy the thing. I tried to get a small discount by hitting up various local chain game stores as well as certain "mom-and-pop" outfits. If I could get just a few shops to stock a few units, I could have gotten a slight reduction in my unit's price via a bulk sale. Unfortunately, every single one turned me down. As AGD2 said, the lack of on-shelf sales support was quite a kick in the pants. I could understand the point of view of the vendors, but it still has to be frustrating to indie developers like the AGDs.

In the end, I scraped up the cash from a temp job and bought my own personal copy. I consider it money well spent (and just below the $40 I mentioned being willing to pay on the first page of this thread).

Gronagor · #61 Post by **Gronagor** » Wed Jul 02, 2008 6:27 am

Don't hate pirates. Pirates are fans, every single one of them.

Heh. You can see the positives and negatives in piracy, but still in the end, it is illegal, it is wrong, and the only ones losing are the ones who made it.

I wonder how many of these 'fans' can say they even made an effort to tell one other person about the game. I can pretty safely say: not a single one. How can you call that a fan then??

#62 Post by **Anonymous Game Creator 2** » Wed Jul 02, 2008 7:07 am

Thing is, it's easy for someone else to sit back and say "You should do it like this!", and "Don't do it like that!" when they're observing from a distance and it's not their company or finances at stake. Kind of like playing a game of Monopoly.

Of course, we considered all of the outcomes and possibilities (piracy and bit-torrent included) prior to releasing the game. It would be foolish to start a business without taking those very important things into consideration. But even the major companies spend millions of dollars on copy protection which still gets cracked. So seriously, what can we do as a small start-up, which hasn't already been done (or thought of) by every major company out there? Appealing to people not to download it is our best bet.

But to suggest we embrace piracy would be an equally foolish thing to do in my opinion. Case in point, there will always be murderers and fraudsters in the world, but that doesn't mean the police force will one day decide "screw it!" and give up on fighting crime just because the criminals change their tactics or become smarter. They'll simply adapt their crime fighting methods to be more effective against the criminals new methods. Of course, the police force's actions and deterrents will never fully stop crime in the world either, no matter how hard they work at it. But the "tug-of-war" will continue on both sides. Why make it easy for them?

I believe the same is true of piracy; there will always be people trying to fight it, and there will always be hackers succeeding in cracking the latest methods. Nobody can ever completely stop piracy, but at least developers can use certain methods to deter a significant amount of "casual" users from pirating their software, or make it so troublesome, that paying for a legit copy would be a far easier alternative. I actually think piracy will become harder for casual users in future years. People are waking up to the damage that bit-torrent can do to companies and I think it's only a matter of time before some kind of reform happens to bit-torrent in the same way that it happened to Napster. It seems like a growing problem that the sleeping giants aren't going to ignore forever.

techie775 · #63 Post by **techie775** » Wed Jul 02, 2008 11:05 am

I think it's only a matter of time before some kind of reform happens to bit-torrent in the same way that it happened to Napster. It seems like a growing problem that the sleeping giants aren't going to ignore forever.

I think the difference is with Napster, you only had one product you could use and when that was shut down you were done. With Torrents they've made it so you don't have to rely on one certain program, there's choices (BitComet,Bittorrent). Given they could shut the trackers down, but people seem to have found a work around for this. Sueing and shutting down one program isn't going to fix the problem. That doesn't make it invincible, but it makes it harder to stop.

Solarkid · #64 Post by **Solarkid** » Wed Jul 02, 2008 1:12 pm

Yeah, trust me Bit torrent is not going anywhere for a long time, it makes up an inconcievable amount of the net, there are so many servers, trackes, peers and even just people who use it, seeds.
What has been done is certain bit torrent searching sites have been shut down and/or fined, but everytime one goes down it is simply replaced by one of the other billion out there.
Also, it is extremely difficult for legal action to be taken against these sites, after all they themselves are pirating nothing, they only allow others to access pirated and legitimate software.
To give you an idea of just how hard it is to shut down one of these sites, take <link removed> The makers of this site make it very clear that they embrace piracy, with joke sites and frequent announcements on their site about new recently pirated software, and yet so far, all attempts to shut them down have failed. Now, eventually they will be shut down, but even if it happens tomorrow, it will still have taken aound a year for the law suits to work, compare that time to the time taken to create a new bit torrent search site and you will see the problem.
Bit torrent is not going away. The only possibility is to discourage users from using it, which has had some limited success in the past, mainly by imposing random but HUGE sentences on a couple of people who have downloaded only a small number of programs. These kinds of scare tactics have limited use however.

As far as steam goes, after some research i admit i was wrong, however, steam is statistically still the best attempt to halt piracy.
Dave

#65 Post by **Anonymous Game Creator 2** » Wed Jul 02, 2008 1:56 pm

Yeah, I'm aware of how these bit-torrent sites work and I also know of the raids that have been conducted on their apartments and computers. But if they can't subdue bit-torrent itself (it IS just a technology after all - it's how people use it than can create problems), then I suspect they'll probably change laws surrounding its illegal usage at some point in the future, in a similar way that child porn sites exist on the net, but if pedophiles are caught trading and downloading those kind of images, they'll be dealt with very seriously by the law. It's something that has the potential to get easily out of hand otherwise and I don't think they'll ignore it forever.

The reason the guys on that site (for which I had to remove the link from your post) act so cocky is because they're based in Sweden, whose legal system apparently doesn't recognize the DMCA (I could be wrong on the specifics, but I think that's the gist of it). They hide behind that because they can. For the time being.

I have found other torrent sites to be accommodating and very fast to take down torrents when requested to.

Kaelon · #66 Post by **Kaelon** » Wed Jul 02, 2008 2:54 pm

Anonymous Game Creator 2 wrote:The reason the guys on that site (for which I had to remove the link from your post) act so cocky is because they're based in Sweden, whose legal system apparently doesn't recognize the DMCA (I could be wrong on the specifics, but I think that's the gist of it). They hide behind that because they can. For the time being.

I have found other torrent sites to be accommodating and very fast to take down torrents when requested to.

The site that you mention is, in fact, now in serious legal jeopardy because Sweden is undertaking the so-called "FRA-Lagen" (or, their own version of the DMCA), which in fact retroactively punishes people for offenses committed in the past. Their offices were raided, and their servers have been wiped. Twice.

But to the OP's question, I would pay between $20 and $30 for an Adventure Game. Anything more just doesn't seem cost-competitive for the types of games that are being made today, and the number of gameplay hours that they offer in comparison. Generally, an adventure game can be finished in under 10 hours. Most games at the $40-50 price-point offer at least 60-80 hours of gameplay.

haradan · #67 Post by **haradan** » Wed Jul 02, 2008 6:29 pm

At one time, piracy could really help a company to get to a wider audience and actually improve sells, on upcoming titles that is. I knew Sierra games back in 1987 just by pirated games. I got every single Sierra game in pirated versions all the way to KQ3. From then on, I bought almost every single new game that Sierra developed, all the way to 1994. Each one costed 60 bucks, so that's a lot of money, specially since I live in an undeveloped country. So Sierra actually benefited from the 80's piracy.

With the internet, that is over. Completely. Today, piracy won't help companies at all, since everybody knows upcoming titles will also be pirated and shared faster than a spreading bullet. And, IMO, it's natural to most people that if you can get something for free instead of paying for it, you'll get it for free, even if you know it's wrong.

Piracy is wrong. Period. It's the same as entering a software shop, taking a game and running out of the store without paying for it. The internet gives you the feeling that you are harming no one, but that's just a feeling.

So, there's no excuse. You say you wanna fight the system? Go into a shop and steal the games directly from the shelves, if you are such a brave freedom fighter. You think the games are overpriced? I might agree on that, but that's not the case with Al Emmo and Himalaya, so there's ABSOLUTELY no excuse to defend the piracy of Al Emmo.

BTW, I was not very excited about Al Emmo (because of the western theme) and I bought it anyway, just to say thank you to these guys who already gave me two free wonderful games. Needless to say, after playing it, now I'm thankful for three wonderful games.

DrJones · #68 Post by **DrJones** » Wed Jul 02, 2008 8:49 pm

haradan wrote:With the internet, that is over. Completely. Today, piracy won't help companies at all, since everybody knows upcoming titles will also be pirated and shared faster than a spreading bullet. And, IMO, it's natural to most people that if you can get something for free instead of paying for it, you'll get it for free, even if you know it's wrong.

The problem is that until recently, it was a workable solution to make money by selling copies (copy & distribution steps) to cover development costs (and make profit). But now that the costs of copy and distribution are negligible, this old business model is ruined. Trying to shut down P2P programs is like wanting to destroy the houses because they happen to allow people to see the games on the stadium for free. : |

There's a need for new business models, and even though there are many suggestions in development, they haven't been throughly tested, so I won't recommend them here. And I don't think some of them could work for small companies, anyways.

It's sad seeing how people happily pay +$2700 per MByte on text messages for Cellphones (much more for ringtones, a total ripoff), but they can't pay 35$ for a game. Maybe you could start offering ringtones or hint guides for cellphones.

haradan · #69 Post by **haradan** » Wed Jul 02, 2008 10:48 pm

It's sad seeing how people happily pay +$2700 per MByte on text messages for Cellphones (much more for ringtones, a total ripoff), but they can't pay 35$ for a game. Maybe you could start offering ringtones or hint guides for cellphones.

You know, that reminds me that even Sierra used to sell more hint books than games (for some titles, at least), which means piracy was quite a big problem for them as well, even before internet. But if people doesn't care enough to buy Al Emmo, I doubt they would buy an Al Emmo ringtone! Or shall we ask Tom to compose one? :lol

Blackthorne519 · #70 Post by **Blackthorne519** » Wed Jul 02, 2008 11:31 pm

It's the merchandising that helps off-set piracy... the hint books, t-shirts, CD's, mugs, underoos.... I mean, seriously, have you ever noticed how much spin-off merch there is for games these days?

An independent developer would be wise to look into other ways to merchandise their product.

Bt

EZ · #71 Post by EZ » Thu Jul 03, 2008 4:52 am

The amount of mis-information in this thread looks like it makes me trying to state my case kind of pointless. So I won't bother any more.

Many people say piracy is "wrong" but what does that word even mean? There's legally wrong, and then there's morally wrong. Piracy is legally wrong, sure (though the specifics are being argued in courts), but so is speeding on the highway. I guarantee that any of you with driver's licenses have broken the law, unless you live in a country where the speed limits are sane. And don't say you're not hurting anyone by driving over 55mph (USA)... it's a proven fact that driving faster increases your chance of a collision with another car, so you are actually risking the wellbeing of others.

I'm sure most of you here have probably broken a law at one time or another, and one that hurts someone else, for that matter. If it happens often enough, chances are the law probably needs to be revised or removed. Laws and regulations are generally intended to protect individuals, whether directly or indirectly.

The DMCA itself is a good example of a controversial law. I wouldn't be surprised to see the thing replaced with something a little less powerful when it's tenure is up.

And I can't believe some of you are actually suggesting that torrent sites will somehow be squashed to death? Someone actually made a comparison to Napster? Seriously, try to understand your enemy before you make such sweeping comparisons. Torrentings and Napster have nothing in common. In fact, pirating music on torrents isn't all that easy, most people use the Napster-inspired Limewire (and Frostwire). Gnutella (the network limewire/frostwire uses) isn't going ANYWHERE and torrents are a far better distributed system.

There are literally thousands of torrent sites. Politicians were boasting that the end of piracy had arrived when <link removed> was shut down. Their smiles began to fade when a hundred clones replaced it. They shut down <removed>. They shut down <removed>. They shut down <removed>. More sprung up... now they are trying to shut down the Canadian-based <removed> search engine and the case has made very little progress in TWO years. People have been saying that the <removed> will be shut down ever since it became big, but it hasn't happened. I doubt it will (it survived a police raid, after all) but if it does, ten more clones will spring up. Russian torrent sites are even less co-operative with the law since Russia doesn't much care.

There's been even less progress in the arena of smaller, private torrent sites. Only two have been shut down as far as I know, <removed>, where the case against the administrator has been postponed three times due to lack of evidence, and <removed>, which was acually pretty successful since two people I know sat in jail for 6 months and one more is facing as much as ten years.

So, like it or hate it, it's here to stay. That much is not up for debate.

But is it wrong? I don't think so... you can compare piracy to murder all day long but there's a huge difference between killing someone and POSSIBLY making someone's business make less money for the sake of your own convenience.

#72 Post by **Anonymous Game Creator 2** » Thu Jul 03, 2008 5:07 am

Last time I checked, people who speed and get caught lose their license, pay a large fine, and if they hit/kill somebody, go to jail. Those are the consequences of speeding if people decide to risk committing that 'minor' offense. Like piracy, people might be tempted to do it, but they should be made to reconsider the wisdom before acting on that 'victimless crime' impulse.

But is it wrong? I don't think so... you can compare piracy to murder all day long but there's a huge difference between killing someone and POSSIBLY making someone's business make less money for the sake of your own convenience.

You don't think stealing for one's own convenience is wrong? Which financial institution do you work for again? Remind me never to do my banking there!

Also, would you mind not posting links or mentioning the names of torrent or piracy urls in your posts? It means I have to go through and delete them all, and I'd really rather spend my time on finishing up QFG2VGA than doing that. Thanks.

Gronagor · #73 Post by **Gronagor** » Thu Jul 03, 2008 6:55 am

EZ, I don't really see the point of continuing the argument with you. You truelly have questionnable morals, to say the least!

Heh. Read this morning about more Xenophobic attacks (from the black-people in the townships over here), which took place yesterday very close to where I live, against 200 Bangladeshiers. If I use your post above, I could easily write a letter to justify these attacks, which I won't because it is simply... wrong.

You a loan-shark?

Blackthorne519 · #74 Post by **Blackthorne519** » Thu Jul 03, 2008 2:44 pm

Sure, piracy isn't murder. But it's still wrong. Period.

Bt

Brainiac · #75 Post by **Brainiac** » Thu Jul 03, 2008 3:15 pm

Sometimes I wonder if part of the reason modern digital piracy isn't viewed with much scorn by people is they enjoyed the romanticized tales of swashbuckling pirates on the high seas too much as kids...

How much would you pay for a Sierra Adventure Game Nowadays?

How much would you pay for a new Sierra Adventure?

My buying

Romanticized