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 Post subject: Question about Ad Avis
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 5:21 am 
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I was just wondering if Ad Avis was a Vampire during Quest for Glory to before his attempt to summon Iblis or after the hero killed him?? Kinda confused on the Lore here.


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 Post subject: Re: Question about Ad Avis
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 6:38 am 
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No, Ad Avis was still human during Quest for Gloy 2, although he already bore two small holes in his throat. He knew that on his death, he'd be resurrected as a vampire slave.

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 Post subject: Re: Question about Ad Avis
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 4:04 pm 
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Hmm. I thought he asked to be saved when he was falling (could be wrong on this). If he knew he'd become a vampire, does that mean he asked to be saved from becoming a vampire?


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 Post subject: Re: Question about Ad Avis
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 4:10 pm 
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He did, in the intro to QFG3. However, he said no such thing at the end of QFG2, so I'm sure a few inconsistencies exist. Probably not a big deal.

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 Post subject: Re: Question about Ad Avis
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 7:24 pm 
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He obviously wasn't looking forward to becoming a vampire and regaining the position of Katrina's pet evil wizard.

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 Post subject: Re: Question about Ad Avis
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 9:50 pm 
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Will Ad Avis call out to Katrina during QFG2VGA?

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 Post subject: Re: Question about Ad Avis
PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 1:52 am 
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Was he calling out to Katrina or was he calling out to Iblis or Avoozl or some other evil person to save him from becoming someone's servant.


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 Post subject: Re: Question about Ad Avis
PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 2:36 am 
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I was going to say Katrina, but after thinking about it, I'm not sure. Ad Avis loathed Katrina with every fiber of his being, possibly only second to his hatred of the Hero. Still, Katrina is the only one he ever treated like a Master instead of a Genie.


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 Post subject: Re: Question about Ad Avis
PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 7:14 am 
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For fear of sounding morbid, fear of death can do strange things to someone. Like in Pirates of the Caribbean 2 when Davy Jones said to his prisoners "Do you fear death?" and that one guy said yes, it was obvious that he could see what he was getting himself into, but he would rather spend 100 years of being a slave than dying. Case in point: Ad Avis, sure he'd have to spend eternity as a vampire slave to someone he completely despised, but at least he wouldn't have to die--In the way that we understand death anyway

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 Post subject: Re: Question about Ad Avis
PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 7:28 pm 
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Doesn't ad Avis call out to the "Dark One" or "Dark Master" when he dies in the QG3 intro? I don't remember it anywhere in Trial by Fire. Then again the Hero is wearing the wrong clothing in the intro and well... you know.


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 Post subject: Re: Question about Ad Avis
PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 8:15 pm 
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Ad Avis doesn't call out to the Dark Master at the end of QFG2. And in QFG3, he simply says, "No! No! Master, help me!" (i.e. He doesn't specifically mention the 'Dark Master', just 'Master'.)

But he does make one reference to "...serving the Dark Master for 70 years while waiting for the stars to align..." in the Forbidden City in QFG2, which implies that he was already Katrina's slave at the time of QFG2 taking place. But I personally don't think the Coles had all of those details worked out during QFG2's development. I think it's more likely that they filled in the back-story about Ad Avis becoming Katrina's slave during QFG4's development.

I don't believe the games ever fully explain how Katrina was able to bite Ad Avis and still allow him to maintain his human form until death rather than becoming a vampire instantly. And I can't really recall how Ad Avis (a powerful Wizard in his own right with hypnotic abilities and a hate for women) permitted Katrina to get close enough to sink her teeth into him. Although I think I remember some of Katrina's speech from QFG4 saying that Ad Avis willingly offered his mortal life to the Dark Master for the ability to become immortal after he died (by being raised in the form of a slave Vampire). But when he made that deal, Ad Avis wasn't aware that the Dark Master was a woman and was repulsed when he found out that he would be a woman's slave for eternity. Hence the reason he tries to have the Hero 'kill' her.

The whole thing makes me wonder what scenario would have unfolded in the event that Ad Avis succeeded in raising Iblis, died in the destruction of Raseir, became a Vampire and was summoned to Mordavia by the Dark Master, and then summoned Avoozl without the Hero's interference. We'd have a clash of the titans while Iblis and Avoozl both roamed free and battled for supremacy... well, unless Iblis destroyed the entire world before Avoozl could ever be summoned, and assuming they could find all the rituals themselves.


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 Post subject: Re: Question about Ad Avis
PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 8:41 pm 
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Quote:
I don't believe the games ever fully explain how Katrina was able to bite Ad Avis and still allow him to maintain his human form until death rather than becoming a vampire instantly.


Actually, they do. Magda explains it to you when you ask her about vampires. If a victim is not completely drained of blood, they'll be able to continue living until struck down by a natural death. Afterwards, they'll rise as a vampire.

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And I can't really recall how Ad Avis (a powerful Wizard in his own right with hypnotic abilities and a hate for women) permitted Katrina to get close enough to sink her teeth into him. Although I think I remember some of Katrina's speech from QFG4 saying that Ad Avis willingly offered his mortal life to the Dark Master for the ability to become immortal after he died (by being raised in the form of a slave Vampire). But when he made that deal, Ad Avis wasn't aware that the Dark Master was a woman and was repulsed when he found out that he would be a woman's slave for eternity. Hence the reason he tries to have the Hero 'kill' her.


Actually, that's not what happened. Ad Avis never wanted to become a vampire. He became the victim of his own ego when he thought he could take Katrina's title for himself...since it was a mere woman who held it. If you ask Katrina about Ad Avis in QFG4 (while she's busy tickling you with her whip), this is what she says:

Katrina wrote:
He came to me many years ago to learn from the one called the Dark Master. What he did not know was that the Dark Master was a woman. He was quite appalled by the fact.

He challenged me to a magical duel and lost. I made him my servant for 50 years until I grew bored him and turned him loose. But I had bitten him and he knew that on his death he would rise again as a vampire under my command. He has served me since the night you defeated him.

He hates me and is waiting for an opportunity to drive a stake through my heart, but he cannot harm me unless I harm him first.


And yeah, she really does say 50 years, rather than 70. I'm not sure which time span is supposed to be canon. Maybe to Addy it FELT like 70 years, if not longer. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Question about Ad Avis
PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 9:14 pm 
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Also, Ad Avis was probably not as powerful when he first came to search for his Dark Master. He may have been not much more than a greedy young apprentice, maybe equal in power to the Magic User Hero in QfG1. 50-70 years in training helped him gain much of his power.

And the 50/70 year thing may not be that inconsistent. Perhaps Ad Avis went to Katrina 70 years before QfG4, and she "grew bored and turned him loose" 20 years ago. From her point of view, he had only served for the first 50 years, but from his point of view she had been looming over him for the whole 70.

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 Post subject: Re: Question about Ad Avis
PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 10:27 pm 
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Erpy wrote:
If a victim is not completely drained of blood, they'll be able to continue living until struck down by a natural death. Afterwards, they'll rise as a vampire.

Taken straight out of some mythologies as well as Stoker's Dracula (the state of Mina Harker).
Schloss Ritter wrote:
And the 50/70 year thing may not be that inconsistent. Perhaps Ad Avis went to Katrina 70 years before QfG4, and she "grew bored and turned him loose" 20 years ago. From her point of view, he had only served for the first 50 years, but from his point of view she had been looming over him for the whole 70.

That's probably the most accurate analysis (presuming it's not just an error of numbers). I'd imagine it took Ad Avis at least a little while to consolidate his power in Raseir.

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 Post subject: Re: Question about Ad Avis
PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 10:33 pm 
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Ah, yes. That's right. I haven't played QFG4 in full for many years, so some of the finer plot background details are a bit foggy in my mind.

If Ad Avis was indeed mortal after being bitten by Katrina, then he would still have been capable of aging. He certainly doesn't look 70+ years old in QFG2. Actually, he'd be closer to 90+, assuming Ad Avis was already an adult when he first sought the Dark Master out. Perhaps it's something the Coles attempted to adjust 'transparently' in QFG4 when realizing that Addy should be much younger.

QFG2's plot also indicates that Ad Avis and Khaveen came to Raseir together, one year before the events of Trial by Fire. Obviously, there must be some back-story involved as to how Ad Avis first crossed paths and asserted power over Khaveen, why they decided to travel to Raseir together, and whether Ad Avis was still under the Dark Master's influence at that time. It could be that Katrina turned him loose and he sought to release Iblis as a means of destroying her. But then, what purpose would his releasing of the elementals on Shapeir serve? I always wondered about that, because if Ad Avis knowingly kills the Hero in Shapeir then he voids the prophecy that he's trying to fulfill and he can't release Iblis. You'd think a guy who meticulously planned the summoning ritual for 50/70 years would be a little more eager to see the Hero to make it to Raseir safely and have Khaveen treat him as a VIP so that no harm would come to him until after he had retrieved the statue of Iblis.

Either the Coles have an entire extensive back-story written which ties all this stuff together (damn, wish we asked Lori about that now!); or they never considered any of it and only filled in the relevant bits later, adding whatever new parts they had to (Ad Avis calling to his Master) or amended any problems (70 years being changed to 50) as the story required.


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 Post subject: Re: Question about Ad Avis
PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 11:19 pm 
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I always figured extensive magical knowledge somewhat slowed the progress of natural aging.

You could always see if you can reach the Coles via their work with Malinche Entertainment.

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 Post subject: Re: Question about Ad Avis
PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 1:07 am 
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Brainiac wrote:
I always figured extensive magical knowledge somewhat slowed the progress of natural aging.


Just what I was thinking. Take Erasmus for example.

Another idea just came to me. With Ad Avis being a master of charm and trickery, his appearance in QfG2 may not have been true. Notice how much older he looks in QfG4, possibly having lost the ability to project the relatively youthful illusion? He doesn't just look older from being changed into a vampire; look at Katrina - she still carries her youthful mortal looks, as she was changed at a young age.

Either way, the 70 years under the Dark Master could be correct.

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 Post subject: Re: Question about Ad Avis
PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 3:10 am 
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There's a lot of time discrepancy in this series. Completely ignoring how long each game takes in game days to finish, something along the line of 5 years would have had to pass between So You Wanna Be a Hero and Dragon Fire.

I recall in Dragon Fire that Rakeesh said that Simba had grown up, and Yesufu and the Leopardwoman (can't remember her name right now) had a child together. That could NOT have happened in the month the Prince was in Mordavia, there had to be a loss of time for the Prince somewhere in there.


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 Post subject: Re: Question about Ad Avis
PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 3:30 am 
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Mr. Alsheid wrote:
I recall in Dragon Fire that Rakeesh said that Simba had grown up, and Yesufu and the Leopardwoman (can't remember her name right now) had a child together. That could NOT have happened in the month the Prince was in Mordavia, there had to be a loss of time for the Prince somewhere in there.

He said Simba was growing up strong and proud like his mother and that Yesufu and Johari were married (nothing about them expecting).

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 Post subject: Re: Question about Ad Avis
PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 11:48 am 
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Anonymous Game Creator 2 wrote:
I always wondered about that, because if Ad Avis knowingly kills the Hero in Shapeir then he voids the prophecy that he's trying to fulfill and he can't release Iblis. You'd think a guy who meticulously planned the summoning ritual for 50/70 years would be a little more eager to see the Hero to make it to Raseir safely and have Khaveen treat him as a VIP so that no harm would come to him until after he had retrieved the statue of Iblis.


I always figured the elementals were something of a test. While the Hero may have established himself as a hero from the north, he can't be the only heroic adventurer to come through the area over the years. (Of course, I recall something about an exact the date the Forbidden City can be reopened, in which case the timing itself should be enough... hrm.)

It may also be he has some faith in the prophecy, regarding both the elementals and Khaveen. Assuming the hero really is the man of prophecy, and assuming the prophecy is unbreakable (after all, it does come true), the hero simply cannot die until he fulfills his role. Thus, Ad Avis would need to worry about getting the hero close to him, and making sure Ad Avis accompanies the hero to the Forbidden City, far more than keeping the hero alive. After all, the prophecy says the hero will have a chance to be responsible for unleashing Iblis, but does it say anything about Ad Avis being there?

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 Post subject: Re: Question about Ad Avis
PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 12:18 pm 
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He probably released the elementals to find the hero. Whoever defeated would be the person from the prophecy and he could then find him and control him.


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 Post subject: Re: Question about Ad Avis
PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 12:48 pm 
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Yeah, the prophecy states that the door to the Forbidden City can only be opened on a certain night. It kind of makes the entire Shapeir portion of the game redundant since the Hero could have immediately gone to Raseir and dealt with Ad Avis from the outset. Only his low stats (and the need to build them up) can really justify why he stays in Shapeir for so long.

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and assuming the prophecy is unbreakable (after all, it does come true)


The prophecy is not really unbreakable since you can die during the course of the game prior to getting the Statue of Iblis. The elementals can kill you. Khaveen can arrest/kill you prematurely, and Ad Avis can turn you into a saurus if he thinks you have no way of getting past the door (which, again, is kind of dumb on his part when he's so close to his goal). The prophecy only comes true if you play the game in the optimal way. But Ad Avis is still taking a mighty big risk by unleashing those elementals and permitting Khaveen to act so recklessly around the Hero. Ad Avis complains about having to wait a mere 50/70 years to open the door, yet if he blows this chance, he'll have to wait another 1001 years for an opportunity to repeat the process. It would make sense to play it completely safe when so much is at stake!

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He probably released the elementals to find the hero. Whoever defeated would be the person from the prophecy and he could then find him and control him.


Hmmm... but why release all four elementals, when he could simply release only the Fire Elemental to find out who the hero is? Or just allow him to perform a less dangerous task, like saving Al Scurva for that matter?

It's also odd that Ad Avis is portrayed as having came to Raseir with Khaveen, when he seems to be a native inhabitant of the land. maybe his Middle-Eastern appearance is nothing more than a magical disguise to help him blend in with the populace.


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 Post subject: Re: Question about Ad Avis
PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 1:16 pm 
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Where exactly does it say that Khaveen arrives in Raseir together with Ad Avis? We can assume Ad Avis has been in Raseir for at least two years (seeing that he was the former Emir's grand vizier), but no mention of Khaveen's past is ever made, nor have I ever caught a hint of where Khaveen came from and when he first appeared in Raseir.

And yeah, I always figured the elementals were a test of some sort too. Since a hero was needed to get through the door and he'd have to be skilled in order to make it through the Forbidden City alive, it'd make sense to separate the heroes from the wannabes. The risk of killing him was probably trivial in comparison to the risk of going after the wrong guy.

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 Post subject: Re: Question about Ad Avis
PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 1:28 pm 
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Quote:
Where exactly does it say that Khaveen arrives in Raseir together with Ad Avis?


Just deduced from various characters' speech in the game. For example:

Zayishah wrote:
This was a beautiful place to live a year ago. All of these changes took place because of Ad Avis.


Ferrari wrote:
As you well know, the old Emir was deposed last year, and his brother took over the Palace. Raseir used to be a place with very few laws and restrictions; a place where the streets were filled with people and merchants and water flowed free from the fountain. That has changed with the coming of Khaveen and his master.


I wonder if the Coles do have any official version of the events and Ad Avis's motives for releasing the elementals in Shapeir.


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 Post subject: Re: Question about Ad Avis
PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 1:49 pm 
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I always thought that if he wanted to destroy shapeir why not release all 4 elementals at the same time ?

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