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 Post subject: Re: Question about Ad Avis
PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 3:53 pm 
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Nothing attracts heros like a city being ravaged by elementals. And maybe the elementals are like Pringles, you can't release just one. Could be that whatever power Ad Avis unleashed on Shapier was an all or nothing attack of the elements...

Man that's a stretch.


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 Post subject: Re: Question about Ad Avis
PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 3:57 pm 
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I always thought that if he wanted to destroy shapeir why not release all 4 elementals at the same time ?


Most likely because they would either weaken or destroy each other, seeing that they are each other's weakness.

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 Post subject: Re: Question about Ad Avis
PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 4:54 pm 
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... AND! ... bad guys just don't do stuff like that! :lol

Don't you know the rules of movie and game villians?!!!


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 Post subject: Re: Question about Ad Avis
PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 4:59 pm 
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Anonymous Game Creator 2 wrote:
I always wondered about that, because if Ad Avis knowingly kills the Hero in Shapeir then he voids the prophecy that he's trying to fulfill and he can't release Iblis. You'd think a guy who meticulously planned the summoning ritual for 50/70 years would be a little more eager to see the Hero to make it to Raseir safely and have Khaveen treat him as a VIP so that no harm would come to him until after he had retrieved the statue of Iblis.

Either the Coles have an entire extensive back-story written which ties all this stuff together (damn, wish we asked Lori about that now!); or they never considered any of it and only filled in the relevant bits later, adding whatever new parts they had to (Ad Avis calling to his Master) or amended any problems (70 years being changed to 50) as the story required.


I always thought Ad Avis was making the prophecy true by releasing the elements. By shaping the hero, or just confirming that this is the hero he needs. If the hero were to fail and die with the elements who is to say he would be clever enough to get the statue? Just my 2 cents...


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 Post subject: Re: Question about Ad Avis
PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 5:05 pm 
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Erpy wrote:
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I always thought that if he wanted to destroy shapeir why not release all 4 elementals at the same time ?


Most likely because they would either weaken or destroy each other, seeing that they are each other's weakness.

Image


Ok Erpy how about releasing earth and water elementals first at the same time and if that is stopped than release fire and air elementals ?
Fire will weaken earth and water will weaken fire. But i don't think fire and air would weaken each other. And the same with earth and water. And how would he stop the water elemental if he didn't have the air elemental yet ?

John


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 Post subject: Re: Question about Ad Avis
PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 5:38 pm 
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Actually anyone who's seen a forest fire knows that fire and air can be an incredibly devistating combination. But I don't really think the goal was to destroy Shapier.

Oh, and he's a hero. He would have found a way. That's what heros do. The only thing that can stop a hero is 52.


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 Post subject: Re: Question about Ad Avis
PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 6:33 pm 
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Ad Avis is crafty, but he's also impatient and posessing a temper. Khaveen is only impatient and tempermental. The Fire Elemental was indeed necessary to complete the trials of Iblis' Cave and I'm sure Ad Avis knew that. He probably sent the other elementals to cover that up (thus keeping Aziza and other WIT members from figuring things out) as well as to possibly further his power by devastating Shapeir and test the Hero. As for Khaveen potentially killing the Hero, I like to think that was simply him oversteping himself due to his nature. As to Ad Avis at the door to the Forbidden City, think about it. He's been planning this for decades and the Hero he's manipulated into this can't even open the door? It's understandable he'd lose his temper, assume he picked the wrong person, and do something hasty.

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 Post subject: Re: Question about Ad Avis
PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 6:55 pm 
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Or maybe it's more likely Khaveen's not above killing you because he doesn't realize your significance or Ad Avis' plans. Khaveens statements in the antechamber suggests he has no clue what Ad Avis is up to...he just follows orders (including keeping an eye on you since your arrival) in the hopes he can remain in Ad Avis' good graces until the latter is ready to leave Raseir.

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 Post subject: Re: Question about Ad Avis
PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 10:27 pm 
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Erpy wrote:
Or maybe it's more likely Khaveen's not above killing you because he doesn't realize your significance or Ad Avis' plans. Khaveens statements in the antechamber suggests he has no clue what Ad Avis is up to...he just follows orders (including keeping an eye on you since your arrival) in the hopes he can remain in Ad Avis' good graces until the latter is ready to leave Raseir.

That too. I mean, honestly, Khaveen's a goon. A tough, vicious, well-connected goon, but still a goon - and goon's don't get told the Master Plan.

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 Post subject: Re: Question about Ad Avis
PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 11:31 pm 
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Anonymous Game Creator 2 wrote:
Quote:
Where exactly does it say that Khaveen arrives in Raseir together with Ad Avis?


Just deduced from various characters' speech in the game. For example:

Zayishah wrote:
This was a beautiful place to live a year ago. All of these changes took place because of Ad Avis.


Ferrari wrote:
As you well know, the old Emir was deposed last year, and his brother took over the Palace. Raseir used to be a place with very few laws and restrictions; a place where the streets were filled with people and merchants and water flowed free from the fountain. That has changed with the coming of Khaveen and his master.


I'm not sure this means Ad Avis only arrived a year ago. Zayishah says it changed a year ago "because of" Ad Avis, not because of his arrival - she could just as easily be referring to the Emir's disappearance. He may not have been the best ruler, but Khaveen & his men were probably not able to go for the city's throat while the Emir was around to countermand them.

As for Ferrari's take, perhaps Khaveen/Ad Avis were not really in the public sphere before, and Ferrari is speaking figuratively (or perhaps Khaveen's arrival actually was at around the same time as the Emir was disappeared).

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 Post subject: Re: Question about Ad Avis
PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 8:55 am 
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Hmmm... I always got the idea Khaveen was always there, but was influenced by Ad Avis when he arrived.

(I don't know why, but why do I have this 'memory' that he was also the captain of the guard before taking over the palace?)


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 Post subject: Re: Question about Ad Avis
PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 9:32 pm 
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That was my feeling too - Khaveen was always there in Raseir, always a vicious and evil man, but tightly controlled. When Ad Avis effectively handed him the reins of power, he turned Raseir into a hellhole.

As for why they didn't release all the Elementals at once, Ad Avis didn't stand to gain much by the destruction of Shapeir. I think the Elementals were a gambit, designed to lure a hero into Ad Avis' trap so that he could be manipulated into doing Ad Avis' will.


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 Post subject: Re: Question about Ad Avis
PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 2:38 am 
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Corsair wrote:
As for why they didn't release all the Elementals at once [...]

Not all of the elementals... don't forget about the pizza elemental. It's in the manual; it's in QFG4, I say it counts.

Oh! Unless the pizza elemental was created, and it is the rug in the antechamber.


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 Post subject: Re: Question about Ad Avis
PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 8:02 am 
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Ok, to put in my own two bits. Those of us who are old enough to remember the 80's and early 90's should remember that most shows and also games of the time typically weren't all that carefully thought out. Especially when it came to continuity in their plots. If you went back and watched any of the movies or children's cartoon from that time you would find plenty of holes in the scripts. I even remember an entire character simply vanishing from the show "Family Matters" without any explanation. Writers, or perhaps more accurately Entertainment executives of the time simply seemed to think even less of our intelligence then than they do now. And that was true of all forms of media.

Or... Maybe we should all repeat to ourselves "It's just a game, I should really just relax".


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 Post subject: Re: Question about Ad Avis
PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 8:27 am 
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Charles wrote:
Not all of the elementals... don't forget about the pizza elemental. It's in the manual; it's in QFG4, I say it counts.


Hmmm.... I think it was the 'pizza element' in QfG4, not the 'pizza elemental'...
Not 100% sure. Haven't played QfG4 in the longest time.


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 Post subject: Re: Question about Ad Avis
PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 9:53 am 
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Yes, of course. But I think Charles is asking, if there's an element, where's the elemental? The other four got their elementals, after all. :)

Personally, I'm guessing a shady deal where Katrina summoned the pizza elemental to Mordavia in order to curry favor with Dr. Cranium. Just another thing Ad Avis had to suffer, having one of his elementals stolen out from under his nose.

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 Post subject: Re: Question about Ad Avis
PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 11:20 am 
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Two possibilities:

- A pizza elemental would be unstoppable since there's no contrary element to pizza. Other then perhaps "lack of pizza".

- It's a joke. I mean, there's also a line about a wood elemental in the game. Maybe there's more elements that aren't mentioned.

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 Post subject: Re: Question about Ad Avis
PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 5:13 pm 
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Wood is one of the Elements in the Japanese mythos, isn't it? ;)

The Pizza Elemental was probably eaten long ago by the early Scientists, and they've been trying to recreate the perfect replica ever since. :lol

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 Post subject: Re: Question about Ad Avis
PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 11:00 pm 
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Erpy wrote:
I mean, there's also a line about a wood elemental in the game.


Schloss Ritter wrote:
Wood is one of the Elements in the Japanese mythos, isn't it? ;)

You are correct; Wood is one of the five Eastern Elements (wood and metal instead of air/wind).

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 Post subject: Re: Question about Ad Avis
PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 12:44 am 
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Erpy wrote:
Two possibilities:

- A pizza elemental would be unstoppable
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Nah! The hero could just release a load of scientists on it and BANG! the pizza would be eaten before it could say "italian"

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 Post subject: Re: Question about Ad Avis
PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 2:30 am 
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Erpy, firstly I just want to take my hat off to the whole AGDI team and tell you how much I appreciate all your hard-work. A heartfelt thank you for not only QFG2VGA, but also your previous remakes.

In particular I wanted to thank you, Erpy, for all your very informative posts - but here you roused my curiosity to the point of moving from being a long-time lurker to actually joining this forum purely in order to ask this question:

Where exactly in the game is there a mention of a wood elemental? I'm really curious to know.

I remember a specific mention of a pizza elemental in the QFG2 manual, albeit no doubt a joke, under the section "Magical Creatures":

"Elementals are created by magical spells placed upon the primal elements of Earth, Air, Water, Pizza, and Fire (Some theoreticians suggest that there are only four real elements, but most modern scholars agree that fire is undoubtedly a basic element). The Elementals have the characteristics of their associated element."

Which makes me even more curious about the wood elemental... because that would increase the in-game basic elements from five to six... earth, air, water, pizza, fire and wood...

actually, as the games progressed, particularly from QFG4 onwards, the pizza element was given more game-time, again as a kind of joke, but still - by Dragonfire, I'm pretty confident that the pizza element was considered canon, even if somewhat "controversial" (i.e. a "scientific" view of the basic elements versus a "magician's" view of the basic elements)...

ok... I'm probably getting banal by now... rambling on like this... sorry... but thank you for your time...


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 Post subject: Re: Question about Ad Avis
PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 2:57 am 
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The Wood Elemental is a joke reference which gets displayed when you look at the axe hanging on the wall in Issur's shop. I think the only way to actually see the message in the EGA game is to click the mouse icon on it, since there are multiple axe's hanging there and simply typing 'look at axe' may not suffice.


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 Post subject: Re: Question about Ad Avis
PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 6:18 am 
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Thanks, Anonymous Game Creator 2... I'll have to load up my old Trial By Fire and click on the axe. I must've missed that joke - cheers!


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 Post subject: Re: Question about Ad Avis
PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 8:53 am 
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Brainiac wrote:
Erpy wrote:
I mean, there's also a line about a wood elemental in the game.


Schloss Ritter wrote:
Wood is one of the Elements in the Japanese mythos, isn't it? ;)

You are correct; Wood is one of the five Eastern Elements (wood and metal instead of air/wind).


Heh. Interesting. :)
In Naruto they explained it that the 5 elements are water, air, earth, fire and lightning/electricity. Wood is a combination of the water and earth elements. Heh.
Can't they make a decision and keep to it?!?!!! :lol


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 Post subject: Re: Question about Ad Avis
PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 12:32 pm 
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I still say one of the element should be taco.

I know they form the basis of MY world.


Bt

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