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Who will you be voting for in the upcoming 08' election?
Poll ended at Sat Nov 01, 2008 10:34 pm
Barack Obama 43%  43%  [ 3 ]
John McCain 43%  43%  [ 3 ]
Other 14%  14%  [ 1 ]
Total votes : 7
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 Post subject: Re: McCain or Obama
PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 5:03 am 
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Spikey wrote:
The Albigensian Crusade is a small example of Christian mass murder: a 20 year formal crusade authorised by Pope Innocent III.


Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending Christianity either. It certainly has its own dark history. But the common argument about the Crusades implies that completely innocent Muslims were attacked by Christians waging war on them. When, in actual fact, the Islamic conquests and occupancy of formerly Christian lands, conquered by jihad and violent means, had already been in effect for centuries. My statement was referring to the reformed version of Christianity that exists today. Sure, you still get some Christian nutcases like the KKK but the large body of Christians and the Catholic Church doesn't show silent support for the KKK by refusing to condemn their extremist views and actions. It's also somewhat strange that Muslims and their apologists would bring up a historic event like the Crusades from thousands of years ago, and try to apply relevance of religious tenets that existed then to the modern world. Christianity has been reformed since the Crusades took place, Islam has not. It's no longer an equal comparison.

Brainiac wrote:
You shouldn't compare extremist forms of any faith to the faith as a whole. Islam is typically rather tolerant of the other Abrahamic faiths (they see us as close enough to the final truth of Mohammed).


Be careful not to confuse Muslims with Islam itself. Many Muslims might be quite tolerant of the beliefs of others, but Islam, as an ideology, is anything but. On the contrary, you couldn't find a more intolerant religion being practiced anywhere in the modern world and it wouldn't be inaccurate to say it shares many traits with Nazism. The problem with Islamic extremism is that particularly devout Muslims are vulnerable to literal interpretation of the Quran's Suras. (And yes, you will find statements about murdering Christians and Jews in EVERY single copy of the Quran, even the 'version' moderates read). So when "the word of God" is filled with statements about killing Jews and Christians, well, it doesn't take a genius to figure out why terrorists do what they do. The line between Islamic extremism and moderateness is very thin, and one that's alarmingly easy to cross. This, combined with its political nature, is what I beleive makes it dangerous and differentiates it from every other religion being practiced today.


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 Post subject: Re: McCain or Obama
PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 7:38 am 
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True, AGD2, but the true Islam religion forbid any aggression of any kind, even religious reasons. But Brainiac is correct that the Islamic religion does see christianity as 'cousin' religion, who's off with their beliefs.

The only time blood may be shed is in self-defense, but even then they're not allowed to kill.

Extremists in all religions can be categorized in the same group:
People who tries to justify their aggresive needs by interpreting a religion their own way.


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 Post subject: Re: McCain or Obama
PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 9:15 am 
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Gronagor wrote:
True, AGD2, but the true Islam religion forbid any aggression of any kind, even religious reasons.


Clearly it does the exact opposite by not only encouraging aggression and violence, but by going one step further and pointing out that it's every Muslims' Holy duty (Sura 8:15-16). The 'true' Islam would be based on the revelations made by Allah to Mohamed as documented in the Quran, correct? Because when I open a Quran and look at it, I see hundreds of aggressive passages about killing Jews and Christians, about stoning people to death, about forced conversion, and about global domination. Are you trying to tell me that what I'm reading with my own eyes is not really there on the page? As chance would have it, these are among the very same things that the Iranian and Saudi governments are advocating today. Amazing coincidence, that!

Really, I can understand why everyone wants to believe Islam is all nice and peaceful, but Western countries are allowing themselves to be duped by buying into all this PC rubbish. There's a lot of talk about how peaceful Islam is, but that's all it is... just talk. As I mentioned earlier, PROVE that the Quran doesn't contain more hate, intolerance, and calls to jihad than it does anything else and I'll join you in calling it a peaceful religion.


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 Post subject: Re: McCain or Obama
PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 9:45 am 
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I didn't say it doesn't contain intolerance and hate. It does. I said that they're actually not allowed to do anything about it (other than NOT mixing with other religions.) Arabs are naturally violent people... the theory is that it was to survive in harsh environments. The Islamic religion did do it's part in calming them down.

My point remain, if countries like Brit, US and Aus etc keep their noses out of other people's business, they will be hated less. If you actually listen to what these extremist groups are saying, you'll see that message very clear! The US, especially, creates these terrorists. The idea one gets is that they motivate 'wars', because it is financially important for them. Everybody know the Taliban, Al Qaeda and even Sudam Hussain had strong links and support from the US a few decades ago. You gotta ask why it is that all of them suddenly turns on the US after all the 'help' they received in the past. Heck, same with Mugabe in Zimbabwe (although he'll never become more than a dictator... too weak to be a terrorist), who was supported to 'take over' Zimbabwe a few decades ago by both the US and UK. Now the people of Zimbabwe (black, white and any other) are suffering more than they ever have or would have were it not for the intervention.

Even this 'clean up' thing going on in Iraq reeks of corruption.


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 Post subject: Re: McCain or Obama
PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 10:19 am 
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Anonymous Game Creator 2 wrote:
Spikey wrote:
The Albigensian Crusade is a small example of Christian mass murder: a 20 year formal crusade authorised by Pope Innocent III.


Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending Christianity either. It certainly has its own dark history. But the common argument about the Crusades implies that completely innocent Muslims were attacked by Christians waging war on them. When, in actual fact, the Islamic conquests and occupancy of formerly Christian lands, conquered by jihad and violent means, had already been in effect for centuries. My statement was referring to the reformed version of Christianity that exists today. Sure, you still get some Christian nutcases like the KKK but the large body of Christians and the Catholic Church doesn't show silent support for the KKK by refusing to condemn their extremist views and actions. It's also somewhat strange that Muslims and their apologists would bring up a historic event like the Crusades from thousands of years ago, and try to apply relevance of religious tenets that existed then to the modern world. Christianity has been reformed since the Crusades took place, Islam has not. It's no longer an equal comparison.


Well, I'm not a muslim and and I'm still bringing it up to show that every messiah needs people dying in his name, no matter when it took place. The Protestants weren't any better towards the Catholics during the reformation. It always takes violence. Also, no matter how long ago the crusades were, the Pope still doesn't want condom use in Africa, which is sort of passive mass murder. Is that more justified because it's so so passive? I think not.

It's always a matter of interpretation whether bearers of a relgion want there to be violence in their own religion. There's also a lot of peaceful muslims out there as well, and THAT can't be denied. I think every religion can be as dangerous as any other.

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 Post subject: Re: McCain or Obama
PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 10:55 am 
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Spikey wrote:
I think every religion can be as dangerous as any other.


I won't argue that all religions can be dangerous. But I do think Islam poses the greatest threat on a global scale.


Gron: This one of the biggest myths surrounding Islam. Mohamed himself was an Islamic 'extremist' whose lifestyle modern day terrorists are emulating. The Quran existed centuries before the US existed as a country, and Muslim extremists have been acting this way all throughout history. Now when they come up against any resistance in their efforts to violently spread Islam, their apologists start with the complaining and unloading of guilt trips, which amazingly, the very people whom these extremists are trying to destroy are swallowing, hook, line, and sinker! Regardless of US foreign policy or how it's altered, these Islamic terrorists will keep attacking non-Muslims and their countries whether there's a war ongoing or not. Plane hijackings, bombings, beheadings, all that stuff has been going on long before the Cold War, and it's not like bin Laden is the Grandfather of terrorism either. Take both him and al Queda out of the equation, and it will have a minuscule effect on the frequency and scale of Islamic terrorist attacks on a worldwide scale. Neither the US nor any other country defines how Muslim extremists act, the Quran does; it always has and always will. It's why Muslim terrorists patterns are nothing if not predictable. But think about it: if all of these extremist demands are granted and they managed to obtain all the power they have requested, do you honestly think they'll just relocate Israel and then sit back in their own corner of the world minding their own business? Given their track record, I hardly think so!

People really love to criticize the Iraq war without having all the facts (or by completely disregarding them). Outright lies are often made up about it in order to bolster people's opinions about why it shouldn't have occurred. These range from misleading untruths, to utter stupidity (i.e. The war was all about oil). Fact is, they were acting on available intelligence at the time. Saddam refused repeated UN requests to inspect his weapons facilities, making it look like he had something to hide. Tell me, is it better to invade and verify that Saddam didn't have WMD's or to not invade, find out he did have WMD's, and then wait for him to use them? Saddam also started the Iraq war by invading Kuwait. Furthermore, most Islamic extremists in Iraq are not even Iraqi citizens. Most are from neighboring countries; the majority from Iran. So, are we are supposed to be listening to what Iraqi moderates want for their country, by listening to and appeasing Iranian extremists? How does that work?

As for listening to extremists want? Like the way the 9/11 hijackers told passengers of the planes they hijacked that they'd release them all if nobody did anything out of line -- but then proceeded to murder them by flying the planes into the WTC? To understand an extremist mindset you have to comprehend the mentality behind what they do and the fact that they will perform any action or tell any lie if they believe it'll further their cause, or result in the success and spreading their religion. Appeasing extremists and extremist governments is never the answer. Once you do that, they know they can negotiate for higher stakes and keep going until they can get absolutely anything they want by mere demands. Even Obama hasn't ruled out military action against Iran's nuclear program, which shows that he could well follow the same path as Bush if the diplomatic discussions with Iran fail.

As for keeping one's nose out of other's businesses, when these Islamic extremists want to kill us all, and respond by unleashing indiscriminate terrorist attacks on our own soil or against our own citizens, they're making it our business and personally involving us. Islamists have always been the initial aggressors in these wars as history has shown time and time again. Until Islam is reformed or eradicated, this vicious cycle will go around and around, ad infinitum.


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 Post subject: Re: McCain or Obama
PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 7:49 pm 
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Spikey wrote:
Every living thing inside the Béziers was slaughtered. This wasn't even 1000 years ago, and only the start of large crusade. Christianity equals mass murder in my eyes ever since walking the soil in certain parts of France, with millions of skeletons under me caused by numerous of killing sprees and crusades, all put there because of Jesus Christ.
You don't have to go that long to get examples of mass murdering. In Africa nowadays you find entire villages destroyed with no child spared, and dictatorships around the globe have starved and/or besieged entire communities in their country.
Now, please lets differenciate between christians. Most "out-of-touch" christians have been protestants, which just took parts of the bible/pope speech you like, and remove the others that you don't (stops you from looting, killing, etc). There are many kind of protestants, and from what I heard, Calvinian "Any interpretation of the bible is equally good" theory is the one that hurt the most. Crusades were made by protestants, and so most witch trials, but the black legend was thrown into catholics because Spain at that time was like today's USA. There are thousands of executions on China every year, but the ones that make the news are the 5 or so that are done on certain states of america (and because their citizens vote to keep it, no less!). Well, something like this happened with Spain at those times. In Spain there were muslims and jews and we both kicked them out of our country, and then our gold age started (no offense, heh :rollin ). Compare that with the christian beheadings in India and other muslim countries: they're killing people that did nothing wrong, were just helping poor people and also had taken votes of poverty (I've yet to see a politic doing that).

I haven't read about the Béziers, but I've read about English colonialism, Chinese wars, and Aztecs slaughters (this one made by spanish, with the help of envious natives). And all they have in common, is that they were performed by crimminals, ensalzed later as heroes! That's disgusting, and you won't ever find a catholic that supports any of those acts.

The problem with Islam, is that even with so many money from oil, their leaders have kept their people in the poverty and ignorance while they live in opulence. The quran tells also believers to take justice by their own hand, so any citizen must act as a police to prevent others from acting in a "non-good" manner, even your own daughter. Also, all people are muslims even though they don't know yet, but if you try to leave islam, you are to be killed. If you become christian, you still love the same god, the same prophets, and you only change your (human and fallible) spiritual leaders, but that is enough to deserve capital punishment.

The Gospel of Matthew 7:3-5 warns you about "seeing the straw in your brother's eye, and not the rafter in your own." Christians (Catholics, at least) have changed a lot in these last centuries and they accept science and condemn all barbarities and the Pope John Paul II was also very outraged with the Irak war, and I haven't heard any bad news about coptics and orthodoxs (among others). But I hear a whole lot of killings made in the name of Islam by crazies and people celebrating it by tearing a living dog apart and eating it, which is why I don't have any simpathy by your spiritual leaders, and hope that in a couple of centuries Islam will either adapt to survive or just die, and the day the Western countries stop acting as idiots and start defending their people from the aggresion of crazies. Crimminals seen as heros again!

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 Post subject: Re: McCain or Obama
PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 8:02 pm 
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Spikey wrote:
Well, I'm not a muslim and and I'm still bringing it up to show that every messiah needs people dying in his name, no matter when it took place. The Protestants weren't any better towards the Catholics during the reformation. It always takes violence. Also, no matter how long ago the crusades were, the Pope still doesn't want condom use in Africa, which is sort of passive mass murder. Is that more justified because it's so so passive? I think not.
Now, I don't know why, but there seems to be very few arguments against catholics because I keep seeing the same ones repeated like thousands of times. This one is specially stupid. The Pope says not to use condoms, but also not to keep extramaritals relations and having sex only with your husband/wife. If you are going to ignore part of the message, making it meaningless, why keep the other part? Do you honestly think condoms by themselves will solve African Issues? Because they are used anyways, and I've seen videos of african teachers telling children of 5 years the use of condoms with very explicit images!!

And that last part, in my opinion, shows that most problems in Africa are caused by themselves, and made worse by russians, french, americans, and other nations that keep selling them weapons they aren't mature enough to use. At least, Spain during the government of Aznar (the evil friend of Bush) stopped the development anti-personnel mines, and if you see the Irak war as a liberation from a well-known genocider, with spanish troops only coming after the war to rebuild the country, this in my eyes puts catholics in a better light that "anti-religious" socialists, the ones that started the production of the killer mines and the ones that retired the troops from Irak in the hopes of creating another Vietnam, and the ones selling tanks and weapons to Venezuela, Colombia and Russia (for oil and drugs, they don't even hide their intentions).

Edit: Sorry for the awful writing, the offtopicness, and the might-be-arrogant tone, but I'm currently very sick with high fever, haven't eat anything in three days and can't think properly. -__-

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 Post subject: Re: McCain or Obama
PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 11:20 pm 
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I took the HIV example because I've lost many friends to AIDS. I've seen people die in close-up from this terrible disease; a disease so easily prevented from spreading; by using condoms. No it doesn't solve other issues - and I never said so - , but it does solve AIDS. It saves lves. Not only do I think condoms prevent HIV, they actually do. I've been working years voluntarily and for the government over here to promote them in the gay community. Yes, it helps; it prevents HIV, the spreading rate is very low these days in areas where condoms are promoted. Because of condoms, nobody has to suffer from HIV again. They physically keep you healthy from HIV, it's not an opinion.

Sex with only husband and wife? Don't make me laugh. Most HIV transactions take place within a relationships (because of the trust; it promotes unsafe sex, no matter the past sexual relationships); and that is a fact.

So who is calling me stupid? I wish to lose no more friends, or any other human being as a matter of fact to that horrifying virus.

I don't have any "arguments against catholics", I am pro freedom of believe, plus, I also said that Protestants have had their share of violence; I was born in the region where the Netherlands were "freed" from catholicism, so I know a lot about that as well. But I am also pro human life saving, pro HIV preventing, and pro treating each other with respect. But I DO think a lot of religions promote hate and violence, as has been stated many times in this thread.

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 Post subject: Re: McCain or Obama
PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 11:21 am 
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Well I myself am a Christian but I've never in my life thought of trying to destroy other religion.

I'm not saying there aren't extremest groups claiming their doing God's 'Work' either.
I mean with the crusades 'Christains' murdered thousands upon thousands (Right?), but did you ever think that they just might be claiming their christains just to make people think the christian faith is evil?

In the bible it states that Jesus NEVER used violence and said to NEVER kill or maim or hurt anyone, period. when the king ordered Jesus to be slain he did not order his followers to sacrifice themselves for God, he instead told them to do nothing to but spread God's word.

And even tho I'm a christian, I haven't been to church for over 2-3 years. but that doesn't make me any less of one.

And besides, isn't this getting a little off topic?

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 Post subject: Re: McCain or Obama
PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 1:14 pm 
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There's plenty of messed up stuff in the Bible too. If you actually read the thing from cover to cover, you could easily draw the conclusion that this Jesus guy was one sick puppy!

But the point is that only a crazy person could take verses and psalms about murder and violence from these archaic religions, apply them to the modern world, and then go around acting like they're doing God's work on earth by killing innocents to further global dominance of their religion. Once they're that far gone, nothing short of a bullet in the head will divert them from the path of destruction. It's why I believe reform of the dangerous elements of religions are crucial, as well as education of the ignorant, before these misguided individuals get to the stage where they become extremists. Fortunately, we don't see any Christians or Jews becoming religious terrorists (unless, of course, they convert to Islam) so those religions are no threat to modern society.

The relevance to the topic was the importance of each presidential candidate's policies on how they'd deal with the war in Iraq, Iran's nuclear program, detainees in Guantanamo Bay, and with the spread of Islam into the West and its ever-increasing list of tiresome demands. Most Western politicians don't understand Islam. They try to fight Islam's byproducts (terrorists) without bothering to investigate the actual source of the terror (Islam itself). In fact, it seems they will blame anything BUT Islam for terror! On one hand, they try to make the West safe by implementing state-of-the-art security measures, while simultaneously allowing Islam's hateful ideology to flourish from within. This is akin to cutting heads from a Hydra without cauterizing the necks with fire. Christianity was only brought into the argument in passing because someone mentioned that it's not all roses either - and this is true. But Christianity isn't the big issue that Obama's up against. Islam is.

The recent attacks in Mumbai India are just an example of how 'peaceful' this religion is, and while the West is wallowing in ignorance now, I doubt it will remain that way forever. Sooner or later people will start getting fed up with increasing attacks and realize that the rubbish Islam preaches about Sharia is not compatible with western democratic values. That's when western politicians might wake up and start acting for the safety of the citizens they're supposed to protect. Hopefully it doesn't take another 9/11 to shake people out of their complacency.


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 Post subject: Re: McCain or Obama
PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 2:31 pm 
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I recently stumbled across this excellent documentary on YouTube, which specifically covers the issue of Western misconceptions about Islam and its direct links to jihad and terrorism. Basically, everything I wanted to say in my above posts... but spoken so much better!

The documentary is very well-done, and it solidly outlines the encroaching threat upon western civilization if political correctness and appeasement towards Islam continues to aggregate as it has been. I urge anybody who's under the illusion that Islam is like any other Abrahamic religion, to watch this documentary with a completely open and unbiased mind. The doco runs for about 90 minutes in total and is split into 10 parts of approximately 10 minutes each. It covers the misconceptions most westerners have about Islam; then debunks them using Sura from the Qu'ran and Hadith in correlation with highlighting modern and historic acts of Islamic aggression.

In my mind, the only thing worse than Muslims lying about how peaceful their religion is, is uninformed non-Muslims agreeing with them! So, check this doco out, learn some things, and then go out and have the balls to stand up for the freedoms that so many westerners take for granted while you can still enjoy them!

http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p ... playnext=1


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 Post subject: Re: McCain or Obama
PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 7:50 pm 
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Honestly Chris, any Religion can be misused to unleash evil on the world behind the guise of righteousness. Every "Holy Book" while having some helpful life lessons that can guide us in the right direction, also have misleading, contradictory passages that when followed, spell continued disaster for the progress of the world as we know it.

Just read some of the ridiculous laws and passages in Leviticus. The 10 commandments should be enough to live by, but the sort of things described in that book is downright pagan in nature. Look at the philosophy "an eye for an eye"...it sure contradicts the concept of "violence begets violence" and "he who lives by the sword, shall die by the sword".

Think about the Inquisition of the Catholic church. Mind you, things have changed since then, but just think of the instruments of torture used against so called "heretics", such as the chair of nails, iron maiden, finger and thumb screws, etc. BTW, the word "heretic" sounds a lot like "infidel". It's the same concept.

Look at what Hitler did to the Jews during the Holocaust. His murdering of Jews all across Europe was barbaric and evil. This happened with his military conquests in each country he conquered.

When the Israelites entered the land of Canaan, they slaughtered every man, woman, and child, simply because it was "The Promised Land" God had left for them. I guess "thou shalt not kill" didn't apply to the Israelites, and that God hated the Canaanites.

Think of the Crusades, and the ridiculous battles that took place over Jerusalem and other parts of the region. Both Christian and Muslim slaughtered one another equally.

Now, think about this war on terror, and the invasion and occupation of muslim and arab nations. From the point of view of these nations Westerners are viewed as perpetrators of genocide, and you have to ask yourself, that if you were one of them, would you agree?

We have to extend respect to our neighbors, as there are plenty of muslims that are unhappy with how their religion is used for terrorism. We can't expect to "win" a war, when we have an invisible enemy in a region where we show no respect for the cultures and customs of people who could be potential allies. A lot of these countries are trying to help, but lack the wealth of western nations for it to be financially feasible. Look at the recession here in the US....you can understand why Pakistan is nearly bankrupt.

As to the threat of Iran having nuclear weapons being a pivotal issue, why should we believe that the US, and other nations possessing these weapons can be trusted any more than a middle eastern nation can? Who was the first nation to drop not one, but two atomic bombs on another country? The US of course. It's still a debatable fact that Japan was very close to surrendering, and that the atom bomb would not have been necessary to drop at all, had we chosen another course of action. The Japanese ambassador was in Washington trying to end the war, but Harry Truman, a democrat, chose to ignore him. We must ask the question, what's more important, winning the war at all costs, or risk "losing" while maintaining or restoring our integrity. I'm not against Iran having it's nuclear program halted, but the US and other nations should set an example by ending the production, and preferably getting rid of their own nuclear weapons. Otherwise, we're nothing more than hypocrites.

On the domestic front, a line has to be drawn between freedom and security. This is why leaders who declare war often have a hidden agenda as an excuse for their power grab. Patrick Henry, an American statesman uttered the famous words "Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!"

It is important for our rights as citizens to remain as such. We must always acknowledge security, but not at the cost of our way of life and freedom. The threat is not always foreign, often it's from within. Regardless of your political affiliation, no matter who you vote for, it is important to hold your leaders accountable. No matter how much you believe in them at the start, it's important to give them the chance before their leadership has been proven, and when they do wrong to hold them to task. I want to give Barack Obama a chance, and I think it's important to reserve judgement, but remain aware when he takes office and serves out his term.

"Tolerance implies no lack of commitment to one's own beliefs, rather it condemns the oppression or persecution of others."

President John F. Kennedy


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 Post subject: Re: McCain or Obama
PostPosted: Wed Dec 24, 2008 9:21 am 
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Aghh... I just typed a very in-depth reply, only to have FireFox lose it on me by crashing. >: So I'll reply somewhat in point form, trying to rememer what I typed before.

Quote:
any Religion can be misused to unleash evil on the world behind the guise of righteousness. Every "Holy Book" while having some helpful life lessons that can guide us in the right direction, also have misleading, contradictory passages that when followed, spell continued disaster for the progress of the world as we know it.


Islam's Qu'ran is the ONLY Holy Book that contains open calls to its followers to commit violent acts against others. Namely, the Qu'ran openly incites violence and hatred against Jews, Christians, and non-believers. True, violence exists in other Holy Books (the Bible for example) with one major exception; they are retellings of events, and NOT open calls to violence from God to his followers like "Kill the Jews" or "Fight the unbelievers wherever you find them." It's not at all contradictory in the Qu'ran, it's a clear call to violence.

Quote:
Think about the Inquisition of the Catholic church. Mind you, things have changed since then, but just think of the instruments of torture used against so called "heretics", such as the chair of nails, iron maiden, finger and thumb screws, etc. BTW, the word "heretic" sounds a lot like "infidel". It's the same concept.


As you've noted, things have changed since then. I'm referring the the current global threat of Islamic expansion, not historical events that are no longer a threat to anyone. The important thing is that Christians have changed since then and no longer treat "heretics" in such a gruesome manner. But modern day Muslims are still beheading and stoning to this very day. They haven't changed at all, not even their barbaric methods.

Quote:
Look at what Hitler did to the Jews during the Holocaust. His murdering of Jews all across Europe was barbaric and evil. This happened with his military conquests in each country he conquered.


Hitler actually murdered the Jews with the assistance of Muslims. And today, we have Muslim countries teaching their children that the holocaust is a western lie, and that it never occurred (the intention: less sympathy for the Jews, more for the Muslims!) Speaking of the Nazi's, Islamic expansion today presents exactly the same threat as Nazism did in the 1940's, prior to them coming to power. Winston Churchill, then the Prime Minister of England tried to warn government leaders about the dangers of electing Hilter and the Nazi party, but he was ignored and cast aside as a delusional heretic for his views. A few short years later, the Nazis did indeed come to power and Hitler began his invasions, resulting in World War II. Winston Churchill had been proven correct, but nobody had listened to his early warnings. Nobody bothered to take action before it was too late. Consequently, many brave soldiers fought for, died for, and won the freedoms that we enjoy today. We, the ancestors of those soldiers, are the guardians and the keepers of this freedom, yet our idiotic modern day PC politicians are foolishly willing to trade it away for this doomed concept of multi-culturalism. And before anyone says "Hey, that's racist!" No, it's not. Islam is not a race. It's a dangerous ideology that consists of Arabs, Asians, Blacks, Whites, and members of any other ethnicity you can fathom. What these people have in common is their hateful and dangerous ideology NOT their race.

Our politicians will tell us the current Muslim immigration is akin to the original immigrants who built America into what it is today. Nothing could be further from the truth. Islam is a dangerous ideology bent on world domination. Muslims don't want to assimilate and better our western culture, they want to destroy and replace it with Islam. Today, we are faced with an identical situation; just replace Nazism/fascism with Islam. Islam is loudly proclaiming that it intends to dominate the world. But are we in the west listening? We are letting Muslim immigrants in at an alarming rate with no regard to the inherent dangers. History is repeating, and again we have a few brave voices speaking out (Geert Wilders, a Dutch politician for example) just as Winston Churchill did against the Nazis, but our politicians just keep appeasing Islam and letting in more fundamentalist immigrants in who refuse to adapt to western society. Like in the 1940's, Europe, will be the first to fall in this coming century. The Islamisation of Europe is already well underway and if it succeeds, every bit of European national identity will be destroyed and replaced with Islam. Did you know that this year, Sharia courts were introduced into the UK? Sharia is strict Islamic law that permits stonings, honor killings, beheadings, female genital mutilations and other barbaric acts. This is something that has absolutely NO place in the civilized western world and yet the Muslims acts of 'victimization' and ' being oppressed' have forced politicians to introduce it. If you think this sounds scary, well, it is! And it won't stop there. Once Europe it subjugated, the United States will be their next target.

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Think of the Crusades, and the ridiculous battles that took place over Jerusalem and other parts of the region. Both Christian and Muslim slaughtered one another equally.


The crusades were defensive battles against Muslim aggression. Islam originated from Saudi Arabia and from there, it invaded and conquered all of non-Muslim lands in the Middle East. It destroyed the Persian Empire and conquered formerly Christian countries like Lebanon. From there Islam expanded it's conquest into Europe and was halted in France. Christians fought the Muslims aggressors back to reclaim their former Christian lands (as they rightly should have), thus the Crusades commenced HUNDREDS of years after the Muslim conquests had already been in effect. Muslim aggressors fought onward and were finally halted at the gates of Vienna, saving Europe from complete Islamic takeover. Islamic Jihad went into hibernation for a very long time, as they were weakened and needed to build up their strength and their numbers. And now, the menace of Islamic fundamentalism has again re-emerged since the 1970's to continue it's conquest of Europe. Only, this time it's succeeding, not through waging direct war, but by using "Taqqiya" or deception, which is permitted in the Qu'ran, to advance the spread of Islam from within. When they are a minority in any country, Muslims are permitted to lie about the 'peace' and 'tolerance' of Islam as long as it helps spread Islam. But when they are a majority, they will vote in their own leaders and laws and then a lot of these silent moderates will become more boisterous in showing the true face of Islam. This is why there is so much silent support from the so-called moderates. Silence is akin to commending these acts, in my mind. Why don't these moderates specifically speak out en-masse against Al Queda, bin Laden, Hezbollah, and other terrorist organizations? Because to do so would be to speak against the these "martyrs" of Islam who uphold the tenets of Islam, and thus would be considered against the writings of Allah.

Our politicians and most gullible people in the west are falling for "Taqqqiya" hook, line, and sinker. We might as well wrap the west in a big bow, stick a crescent moon flag in the White house and hand it over to the Islamists on a silver platter if things continue at this rate.

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...think about this war on terror, and the invasion and occupation of muslim and arab nations. From the point of view of these nations Westerners are viewed as perpetrators of genocide, and you have to ask yourself, that if you were one of them, would you agree?


If the west truly wanted to plunder the Middle East, if it wanted to destroy Mecca, if it wanted to eradicate Tehran, and steal the oil from the region, it could easily do so. The Middle East would not stand much of a chance when pitted against the full military might of the united Western armies. Now, if the west was fighting as unfair a battle as the Islamists and their apologists would have us believe, the west with it's military superiority could crush these backwards nations like ants. If the "Christian infidels" were really waging a war to eradicate Islam, don't these pea-brains understand that it could be accomplished in an afternoon by simply carpet bombing Mecca? Granted, the average Islamic mind probably isn't capable of comprehending the fact that the West is trying to help them. But that's beside the point.

We often hear Americans saying things like "If we just pull our troops out of the Middle East, the extremists will go back to mowing their lawns and hanging out their laundry. They'll leave us alone and there will be peace." Not true. It's awfully naive of many Americans to make such assumptions without a deeper knowledge of the history of Islam and Qu'ran. In effect, this is like saying "America is the be-all and end-all of everything that goes on in the Middle East, and our actions define their reactions."

American involvement in the Middle East and the creation of the state of Israel are both modern occurrences in history. Both events occurred within this past century. Yet, the Qu'ran has contained verses like "Kill the Jews" and "Fight the unbelievers wherever you find them" as open calls to violence for ALL Muslims, from its conception 1400 years ago. History shows us that Islamists follow this pattern and adhere to this train of thought unfailingly in their attempt to acheive global domination of their political ideal. Therefore, it does not matter if the US involves itself in the Middle East. It does not matter if the state of Israel ever existed or not. These are just ruses designed by Muslims to make the west feel guilty. They are acts of "Taqqiya" or deception. The United States IS a target of Islamic conquest and always will be a target regardless of whether they are in the Middle East or not. The only difference being whether the Islamists attempted USA takeover will be waged through conflict (fighting US troops in the Middle East and on their home soil), or via deception and manipulating the political system from within. More than likely, it'll be a combination of both. Either way, jihad in the United States IS going to happen, and, in fact, it's already underway. These leeches use the very freedom of our countries to deceive and spread their hate cult from within, and they rely on the ignorance of westerners' support to help them grow.

The United States is no more a target than ANY other country in the grand scheme of things. How do Islam's apologists explain mass immigration, Muslim-only enclaves, Islamic riots, and frequent violence against non-Muslims in France, a country which categorically refused to support Bush's invasion of Iraq? How do these apologists explain the near-daily Buddhist murders being committed by Muslims in Southern Thailand -- again, these are people who have nothing to do with Israel or US occupation in the Middle East? Americans are NOT the sole targets of Islamic terrorism! Apologists know they can't explain these things truthfully, so instead they choose to focus only on that tired-old guilt trip of US troops being stationed in the Middle East, because they just know this little doozy works wonders at making Americans feel guilty and divided. It makes them believe that they alone have evoked Islam's wrath due to their "meddling" ways. But the truth is that Islam indiscriminately targets anyone for violence and subjugation who is non-Muslim, irrespective of whether they're actively involved in Muslim affairs (USA) or whether they're completely minding their own business (Thailand). Islam's goal is to dominate the entire world. And everyone who values their freedom has an obligation to learn about what Islam is, what it wants, and how to avoid the deception that's being spoon-fed to us. Not all religions are equal. Most religions are personal. Islam is political.

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why should we believe that the US, and other nations possessing these weapons can be trusted any more than a middle eastern nation can?


One reason: Islamic ideology.

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We have to extend respect to our neighbors, as there are plenty of muslims that are unhappy with how their religion is used for terrorism. We can't expect to "win" a war, when we have an invisible enemy in a region where we show no respect for the cultures and customs of people who could be potential allies. A lot of these countries are trying to help, but lack the wealth of western nations for it to be financially feasible. Look at the recession here in the US....you can understand why Pakistan is nearly bankrupt.


Respect is an important word here. Respect is something that has to be earned. It's never given for undue cause. When Muslims start to act respectfully toward OTHERS; when they move to host countries and assimilate into society rather than demanding that the native culture changes to suit Islam; when they stop making ridiculous demands, rioting, and otherwise acting like victims if they don't get their way; when they specifically condemn known terrorists and organizations by name... that is when people will start to respect them. But asking us to respect a violent and hateful cult, simply because Muslims demand it be treated equally? That's like asking one to respect Nasizm or facism and put it on the same level as secularism. Impossible! The onus is on Islam to adapt or die. Because in its current form, it cannot co-exist peacefully with western liberal values.

As I've mentioned previously in this thread, Bush's mistake with the Iraq war is that he doesn't understand Islam, just like most politicians don't. By invading Iraq, he's fighting the symptoms and not the cause. You can kill 10,000 Muslim terrorists and another 10,000 will be ready to take their place. Why? Because the ideology that incites Jihadists to hatred of the infidels is the root cause of terrorism -- Islam itself. These terrorists are following the true Islam as intended by Mohammed. They emulate Mohammed. Normal Muslims who say their religion has been hijacked are either being deceptive (Taqqiya) or they are just as ignorant about Islam as most westerners are. We must remember that the large majority of Muslims have Islam forced upon them at birth, and they don't know very much about it. Many have not even taken a cursory glance at the Qu'ran, let alone the Hadith. Therefore, strategic wars, although often necessary, are only one front in the fight against extremism. And they are not the most important front. The absolute MOST important tool we have is confronting this hateful ideology is education. Educating others about Islam and exposing it for what it really is. This can't be done by dancing around the issue in an effort to avoid hurting Muslims' sensitivities. By education, I mean totally pulling down the veil of political correctness, and having the Media report honestly and openly the truth about Islam. Educating Westerners AND sincere peace-loving Muslims alike about Islam's real teachings so that no rational, albeit misguided person, will harbour unsafe notions about Islam being peaceful when it's simply not true. We need to look past these deceptions and be smarter. Taking the word of fanatics at face value is not wise. I think anyone who isn't willing to invest time into honestly and openly appraising Islam is doing a big disservice to both Muslims and themselves. The west NEEDS TO WAKE UP and deal with this threat, otherwise the coming century is going to see global wars, the likes of which the world hasn't experienced since the Middle Ages.

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It is important for our rights as citizens to remain as such. We must always acknowledge security, but not at the cost of our way of life and freedom. The threat is not always foreign, often it's from within.


Can you honestly name any group of people or individual that poses even remotely the same security threat towards a hostile take-over of the entire United States to the extent that Islamists do? Such a thing doesn't exist in this day and age. Islam is the clear and present danger of our time.

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I want to give Barack Obama a chance, and I think it's important to reserve judgement, but remain aware when he takes office and serves out his term.


Short of handing over the US and Israel to Islamists, there's really nothing Obama can do to bring peace. His rhetoric was simply to win him votes. What will be interesting is to see how he does intend to handle this hot potato. Islam is a 'peaceful religion', only to the extent that Muslims will deem the world 'peaceful' once all other subjugated countries fall under "Dar al-Islam" (the House of Islam). They reason that once everyone in the world is Muslim, there will be nobody left to fight or convert anymore. Hence, peace will be achieved (deceptive, no?) Every country not yet conquered is viewed as Dar al-Harb (House of War). The United States falls into this category. In fact, what needs to urgently be done is to put an immediate stop to mass Muslim immigration into the west and send those Muslim immigrants who are unwilling to assimilate into Western society back to whatever Middle Eastern country they originated from. Given current levels of western appeasement of Islam, though, I can't see Obama doing something smart like that because it'd make him even less popular than Bush. I'll be very impressed with the man if he does, however.

Unfortunately, Obama will probably bend things even more in favour of Muslims in the United States, allowing more mosques to be built and more Muslim 'rights' (read 'demands') to be passed, allowing Islam to get an even firmer foothold within US society. This will make the situation even worse than it already is. Muslim's didn't endorse Obama as their election favourtite for nothing -- there's a method to their madness (so to speak.) Despite Bush's unpopularity, he HAS unquestionably made the US safer since 9/11. The problem with Obama is that he risks undoing all of that. His policy on closing Guantanamo Bay and trying the terrorists held there in US federal courts seems nothing short of foolish. He will soon learn that the Bush administration kept these terrorists in Guantanamo Bay for a very good reason. These are not common thugs and murderers; many of the detainees are huge threats to national security. As far as Islam is concerned, things can't afford to get much worse before action is taken - certainly not in Europe or the USA. If Obama opens the floodgates for Islamic expansion into the United States, then he will irrevocably open a Pandora's Box and it will be extremely difficult to go back. He seems to want to experiment with a system which is already successfully keeping the United States safe, and his pandering to Islamic sensitivities seems liable to bring more harm than good.

In the meantime, watch the documentary I posted above. Feel free to disagree with it or whatever. I do suggest watching it, however, simply to get some perspective on both sides of the situation. We already know the Muslim's side all to well. But they are masters of victimization and making themselves look oppressed to gain sympathy so that laws will be passed in their favor. Of course, any informed decision needs to weighed up on both sides for the sake of a balanced argument. Besides, It'd also really prevent me from having to type all these long posts because it references everything so much better than I can. >D


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 Post subject: Re: McCain or Obama
PostPosted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 3:34 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2008 7:27 pm
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Anonymous Game Creator 2 wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=EBC6CEC7E7C615B4&playnext=1

This video has been removed due to terms of use violation.

Any other links? What was it called?


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 Post subject: Re: McCain or Obama
PostPosted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 4:52 pm 
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The Prince of Shapeir

Joined: Tue May 08, 2001 4:12 am
Posts: 8872
Location: Phobos
Quote:
This video has been removed due to terms of use violation.


Heh, typical.

The documentary is called "Islam: What the West Needs to Know". Here's another link on Google Video. This video is all contained in one piece, not split into parts:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 7772997781


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