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 Post subject: Re: Becoming paladin
PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 9:16 am 
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That's a valid point, but how many people buy the x-ray glasses by accident and put them on by accident? The glasses don't show up in the shopping GUI by default, you have to ask about them before you can buy them. In practice, I think about 99% of all players who buy the glasses know exactly what they're for.

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 Post subject: Re: Becoming paladin
PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 9:35 am 
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Erpy wrote:
That's a valid point, but how many people buy the x-ray glasses by accident and put them on by accident? The glasses don't show up in the shopping GUI by default, you have to ask about them before you can buy them. In practice, I think about 99% of all players who buy the glasses know exactly what they're for.

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Right - but those very same players also know that it's not a disqualifying action in the original game. Anyone who doesn't bother checking here can go through the game and have absolutely no idea what they did wrong in trying to become a paladin.

Of course, it might be said that anyone who doesn't come here also doesn't care enough to find out what they did wrong, but it's still annoying to reach the end game and find out that something messed up the paladin path while living under the impression that everything had been properly done.

And anyone who isn't aware of what the glasses did won't have a hard time stumbling upon them - the glasses dialogue is part of the normal dialogue with Keapon.

At least something should clue the player in that something has changed from the original game upon entering Zayishah's room.


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 Post subject: Re: Becoming paladin
PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 1:24 pm 
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Moreover, the *character* doesn't know what the glasses do (other than that they make things look funny).
I think that the proper "paladiny" thing to do (for the character) might be just turning (facing) away the moment he realizes what't going on, but how to pass such choice on the player?


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 Post subject: Re: Becoming paladin
PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 5:05 pm 
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I remember on my first run, I got a message of Zayishah laughing at me because I had a funny face with the glasses on, which should be enough advice.

By the way, any male with an atom of testosterone knows the purpose of a pair of "X-Ray glasses", even if the game didn't gave any clue about it (which it does).

I'm perfectly okay about its use ruining your chances of becoming a paladin, heh. That is a good foil to all those that play games with the index finger on the walkthrough, as no other would be surprised about it being a dishonorable action. :lol

If any, I'd be surprised that I can see through veils, but the one on her face still remains.

Edit; To the person that suggested allowing the Hero not to peep while you have the glasses on (and thus, leaving the nice view to the player): The automatic peeping has a reason, and it's to mock at you for trying to be clever. Haha. It also happens if you don't have the glasses on at that moment, so it's not something he can control no matter how rightful he is.


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 Post subject: Re: Becoming paladin
PostPosted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 6:08 am 
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Does anyone know if backstabbing monsters prevents you from becoming a Paladin?


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 Post subject: Re: Becoming paladin
PostPosted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 11:28 am 
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No. In alpha versions, you still took a one-time punishment of 2 paladin points for backstabbing, but I later limited it to a negative honor bonus and took the paladin point penalty out of it.

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 Post subject: Re: Becoming paladin
PostPosted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 8:12 pm 
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Cool.


And after playing through a thief that turns into a paladin I've found the points do work exactly the same as in the original.

Which means the 6 points for saying no to Ferrari shouldn't be there. I just got 506 out of 500. *goes to add it to the bug forum*


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 Post subject: Re: Becoming paladin
PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 3:27 am 
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Sorry to come back to an old issue, but I also have a problem with the X-Ray glasses.

While I do agree that deliberately watching a woman getting changed like that should disqualify you, I didn't see any hint anywhere in the game that the glasses would actually do anything.

Look at the comment you get when you first put them on (Everything goes grey, or something like that). Look at the reaction you get from Keapon if you're still in the shop when you put them on. Look at the way that absolutely nothing else changes in the entire game - except for one room.

Everything seems to suggest that the glasses don't let you see through anything.

Erpy, you commented earlier that we all know what the glasses do, and for the bulk of us who post or lurk on these forums, you are probably correct. I expect, however that your game will be played by more than just these people. For years after I first played the game I didn't realise that the glasses did anything at all, despite the fact that I would buy them each time I played (I like to tick every box, if possible, while playing a game).

Even if Zayishah comments about the glasses (I can't remember it, but I am perfectly happy to believe that the comment is there), without any indication that here and here alone do the glasses actually do anything, it's a little unfair to penalise people.

I think that it's a mistake to punish people for not having inside knowledge about the game. You need to ensure the game works for a person who has never seen it before. For the rest of the game, you seem to have done just that (and done it very well, I might add), but not here it seems.


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 Post subject: Re: Becoming paladin
PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 9:57 am 
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Actually, the comment you get when putting on the X-ray glasses does hint at their purpose: "You put on the glasses. Suddenly, everything appears as though you were looking through a veil."

If you always used the glasses in every playthrough before and you like to play as thoroughly as possible, didn't you find it weird that Zayishah gets annoyed if you try to make the moves on her (and even tells you to get lost if you persist, resulting in death), yet has no reservations about undressing right in front of you without something to cover things up?

I still maintain that most people who bought and used the glasses knew what purpose they served. I think the community was even somewhat split on whether wearing the glasses in the original gave you a penalty before QFG2VGA came out. Becoming a paladin requires a little "inside knowledge" to begin with. You must know that you have to be in the southern fountain plaza on day 7 and stick around until Omar finishes his poem completely, so his purse appears there on your next visit. You must know that fighting the griffin is a no-no. And in the game itself, the paladin class is only vaguely hinted at, but no clear directions are given...not killing the griffin even tends to be counterintuitive to the fighter class who usually gets points for slaying different monsters. It's not like we prevented people from succesfully finishing the game, we simply altered a criterium needed to come across a hidden outcome at the end. (and people who play through the series for the first time can still become a paladin in QFG3...where you actually have to make an effort to avoid becoming one)

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 Post subject: Re: Becoming paladin
PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 11:17 am 
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Erpy wrote:
Actually, the comment you get when putting on the X-ray glasses does hint at their purpose: "You put on the glasses. Suddenly, everything appears as though you were looking through a veil."

This is the exact opposite of what I would expect a working pair of X-Ray glasses to do. It makes everything look like you've added an extra piece of material between you and the world. People don't generally cover their eyes with a piece of material to help them see the world better, unless you are trying to block out the sun. Real X-Ray glasses should make it look like you are not looking through a veil, even if you are.

Erpy wrote:
If you always used the glasses in every playthrough before and you like to play as thoroughly as possible, didn't you find it weird that Zayishah gets annoyed if you try to make the moves on her (and even tells you to get lost if you persist, resulting in death), yet has no reservations about undressing right in front of you without something to cover things up?

In the original, you can see that there is a light veil there even if you do have the glasses on, so she is clearly not getting changed right in front of you. Secondly, even if the changing room veil wasn't there the hero still doesn't get to see anything because he is facing the wrong direction. Zayishah has a friend there to ensure that he doesn't try and take a peek. She gives him a dirty look when he does (regarless of glasses).

Would it be possible to add refrences within the game somewhere that show that the glasses are actually doing something? If you did that, then the player would have a better chance at noticing that the glasses do actually work, and so the decision to use them with Zayishah would be up to them.

I am slightly worried that I am comming across as somewhat argumentative. This is not my intention. It is, of course, your remake - not mine, so if you still disagree, I'm not going to argue with you about it.


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 Post subject: Re: Becoming paladin
PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 3:41 am 
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Okay, a question on this topic of the glasses. I am still in Shapier and have put on the X-Ray glasses. Can I take them off and still aim for paladinhood, or does the mere act of putting them on activate the in-game variable for a decrease in paladin points?

I guess it doesn't matter at this point since I've completed both thief quests in Shapier. Curses! Foiled again!


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 Post subject: Re: Becoming paladin
PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 5:55 am 
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Putting them on and taking them off again won't matter. It only counts as a disqualification for Paladinhood if you're wearing them during the Zayishah clothes changing sequence.


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 Post subject: Re: Becoming paladin
PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 5:25 am 
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But if you dont wear them, you miss a catchy pun, and everyone knows the reason for all QFG games is to promote Punny humor. Man I wish they had made a game that was all about Gnomes.


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 Post subject: Re: Becoming paladin
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 11:33 pm 
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Maybe it's a stupid question, but I don't understand where are these Paladin points supposed to be? I don't see them anywhere on the interface - there are only communication and honor points. And as for the griffin, what exactly does "disturbing" mean? I tried to talk to him once or twice, does that take any points from me?


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 Post subject: Re: Becoming paladin
PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 4:56 am 
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The Paladin points aren't shown to the player. They just work behind the scenes to determine if you end up becoming a Paladin or not.

Talking to the griffin is fine. You'll know when you've disturbed it.


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 Post subject: Re: Becoming paladin
PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 12:25 pm 
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adeyke wrote:
The Paladin points aren't shown to the player. They just work behind the scenes to determine if you end up becoming a Paladin or not.

Should you become a Paladin, you'll receive the additional points in your overall score at the end of the game, increasing the maximum from 500 to 550 (for Fighters and Wizards; Thieves becoming Paladins should only be able to reach 500, though it's currently possible to get 506).

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 Post subject: Re: Becoming paladin
PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 12:26 pm 
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Hi guys

I just started playing this game - excellent :rollin

BUT when you say you cannot enter the Metal Worker's House if you wanna become a paladin do you mean the Saurus repair shop or is it something else (which I apparently haven't discovered yet on the map)!??

And how do you embark on becomming a paladin - so far I have only heard Rakeesh mention it and that's it!?

Thanks

Regards Red Makak


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 Post subject: Re: Becoming paladin
PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 2:34 pm 
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No, not entering the metalworker's house means not agreeing to break into someone's house to loot the place. Becoming a paladin happens automatically at the end of the game if you've been honorable enough. To become a paladin:

- Don't steal or keep stuff that doesn't belong to you.
- Don't kill or attack stuff that isn't trying to kill or attack you.
- Be nice and honorable.

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 Post subject: Re: Becoming paladin
PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 12:00 am 
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Thanks Erpy

I think I have honoured that so far... even though it sounds tempting with the x-ray glasses you guys were talking about in the thread 8))

Regards Red Makak


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 Post subject: Re: Becoming paladin
PostPosted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 4:10 am 
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Hey guys,

I read the OP. Does that mean if you say miss a critical event you can still become a paladin? In my case, I didn't know about Day 7 with Omar, but I have so far done everything else...

Thanks for the help.


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 Post subject: Re: Becoming paladin
PostPosted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 10:52 am 
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Yes, I think that event was necessary in order to become a paladin.

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