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 Post subject: One thing that annoys me about the QFG series...
PostPosted: Sun May 30, 2010 4:19 pm 
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... is that it allows cross-training characters, and then punishes you if you take advantage of that possibility. And yeah, you may dislike or disapprove of hybrids and talk about replayability, and that's a valid but personal opinion of yours, so all it means is that you're free not to play hybrids if you don't like them. Other players may feel differently, and again, the game allows it - so it should support it down the road.

As a point of curiosity, if anyone is indeed curious, I got my fully cross-trained Paladin to QFG 5 and I'm being blackmailed by that jerkass Ferrari for being a thief. The game somehow decided to make that happen because I happen to know lockpicking. Say what? Never stole anything in my life, I didn't join the thieves guild, I never showed Ferrari or anyone else the thief sign, so what gives?

But that is by the way. Most of the time it's just the inconsistency in rewarding puzzle points for solving problems. Sometimes it makes sense, any solution to a puzzle is good as long as it's a solution, and you get puzzle points no matter how you did it. At other times... well, the award for the dumbest example in all the series goes to QFG 2 actually, which is why I'm posting here.

I'm talking about the part of the game where you're looking for the statue of Iblis at the behest of your good and trusty friend Ad Avis ;), and at one point you have to get off a cliff of sorts. You can jump down as a fighter, as a thief I think you can climb a rope down?, and you can levitate down as a magic user. So far so good. But the thing is, if you are a fighter who knows magic, and you know how to levitate, isn't that a perfectly legitimate thing to do? Why is not rewarded with puzzle points and why is it somehow best to just jump down and hurt yourself? Levitating down is exactly the same thing except you saved yourself a sprained ankle or whatever those lost HPs stand for, so it's actually the superior solution if you have access to it.

So to me, this sort of a thing seems to be to be arbitary and offensive to common sense. In short: if the puzzle is solved, then puzzle points should be awarded.

I already know Erpy will not agree, but the rant needed doing. ;)
/end rant

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 Post subject: Re: One thing that annoys me about the QFG series...
PostPosted: Mon May 31, 2010 6:54 am 
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There's three outcomes to a puzzle.

1. You fail it (either death, retry, or deade end)
2. You complete it, but could have done better (Using cross-class skills, for example)
3. You complete it in the best possible manner (A wizard naturally uses magic, a fighter naturally bashes things, and knows he can take the damage, and a thief just prefers to avoid things)

A fighter using magic may solve the puzzle, but it doesn't fit your character's personality. A fighter is naturally a physical character. He may use magic to make things convenient, but he is first and foremost a fighter. People would laugh at him if they knew he used a levitation spell instead of taking the floor like he takes everything else-- head on. It'd make him seem like a wimp. So he doesn't get puzzle points for doing it.


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 Post subject: Re: One thing that annoys me about the QFG series...
PostPosted: Mon May 31, 2010 8:44 am 
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Eh? My character's personality is how I play it. And "people would laugh at you" is a sandbox argument ;)

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 Post subject: Re: One thing that annoys me about the QFG series...
PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 7:41 pm 
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No... it's an RPG, you're supposed to play the role. That's part of the puzzle. If you choose to be primarily a fighter (as in, that's the class you picked even if you gave him other skills), then he should think like a fighter. And even though you don't speak, there are some bits of dialogue that are class specific (most notably in QfG3 when you are traveling to the Simbani village with Rakeesh) that do give indications of your personality.


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 Post subject: Re: One thing that annoys me about the QFG series...
PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 10:01 pm 
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Regarding Ferrari...checking for lock-picking skill is the most reliable way for the designers to determine if someone is a thief or not...climbing and stealth are used in various ways, but lockpicking is the one skill that defines a thief. If you didn't want to be a thief, why the heck add the lock picking skill?

I guess that move in QFG2 with the points was to encourage the player to think as his character would and figure out all solutions instead of merely one that's then always used in subsequent playthroughs. (though the "only get points by using the solution that fits the class"-thing isn't all that common) I think the ability to add non-native skills to your class were to have them SUPPORT the character's native talents, not completely REPLACE them. This is consistent with the traditional Role Playing Games the Coles based the games on, where mixed classes like a fighter/thieves can only wear light armor and priest/thieves can only use priest-type weapons. I think it's perfectly fair that when for example you choose to add magic to a non-mage class, your character that gets to dabble in/rather than specialize in magic has less spells at his disposal.

And the QFG-games definitely suggest the four classes have four personalities, which is why certain women in QFG5 won't marry certain classes.

I'm not bugged by this aspect...it adds replay value.

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 Post subject: Re: One thing that annoys me about the QFG series...
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 6:25 am 
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Markus Ramikin wrote:
Eh? My character's personality is how I play it.


Actually, no, seeing as how you can't actually "play" personality.

For instance, Rakeesh in QFG2, when you visit him on the final Shapeir day as a Thief, mentions that he sensed "dark" in you when you first met, but that you do have light in you that shines when you let it, and that you have to walk a thin line between light and dark in order to succeed. This is basically proof that the Thief has something in him that's "evil", but is also primarily good. This is basically Rakeesh's way of stating "You're a selfish jerk, but you care about the greater good more. It is what makes you dark and what makes you light that will both lead the way to success."

Have I mentioned Rakeesh is my favorite character in all of the QFG series?


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 Post subject: Re: One thing that annoys me about the QFG series...
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 8:51 pm 
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crayauchtin wrote:
No... it's an RPG, you're supposed to play the role.


I think thats the bottom line really, you can never play exactly the personality you want to in rpgs, thats not the idea. The very fact that at the end of the day, the designers have made a limited number of things that your character can say in dialogue is an example of this.

I know what you mean though

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 Post subject: Re: One thing that annoys me about the QFG series...
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 11:56 pm 
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See, after being taught by Rakeesh, about how I should ignore opinions of others and not conform to what is expected of me, but only choose things based on my Will, I think I'm going to stick to my opinion ;) those views of the 3(4) classes are rather narrow and stereotypical as far as I'm concerned.

Erpy wrote:
If you didn't want to be a thief, why the heck add the lock picking skill?


1. Know the ways of thy Enemies.
2. (any kind of) Knowledge is power.
3. We know that every puzzle is soluble without adding crossclass skills. But that's metagaming. My -character- doesn't know that he'll never run into a situation where his narrow skillset will be found lacking.
Take for instance the Earth elemental. The magic user can defeat it with his own native skills. Fighters and Thieves have to depend on Rakeesh or the Apothecary, respectively. Suppose those guys weren't around in Shapeir at that time - a magic-less fighter or thief would be screwed.
4. Just the way I like to play. Be as versatile as possible. Let my character refrain from being a thief not because he's too dumb/unskilled to do it, but because he chooses not to - even though in a pinch, he still could do so.

(Sorry, I assumed you actually wanted to know. ;) )

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 Post subject: Re: One thing that annoys me about the QFG series...
PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 12:59 am 
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Solarkid wrote:
crayauchtin wrote:
No... it's an RPG, you're supposed to play the role.


I think thats the bottom line really, you can never play exactly the personality you want to in rpgs, thats not the idea. The very fact that at the end of the day, the designers have made a limited number of things that your character can say in dialogue is an example of this.

I know what you mean though

Maybe it's because I'm an actor and I'm generally given a script... I don't see that as being a problem. It's playing out the script for me.


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 Post subject: Re: One thing that annoys me about the QFG series...
PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 1:22 am 
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It's not a "problem", it's just not the only way to play a game. Of course to an extent the choices will always be limited, as a game can only contain so many alternatives, but outside very specific roles which are cool/interesting enough to justify it (e.g. the Witcher) I like a game to give me more roleplaying freedom rather than less.

Especially if, as I said before, it already seems to promise that by allowing you to, effectively, multiclass.

Anyway I don't want to make it look like it's a really big serious complaint. It's just something I felt like venting out, and now I'm discussing it because the topic has been picked up and replies have been made, so why not. :)

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 Post subject: Re: One thing that annoys me about the QFG series...
PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 6:12 am 
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Markus Ramikin wrote:
1. Know the ways of thy Enemies.
2. (any kind of) Knowledge is power.
3. We know that every puzzle is soluble without adding crossclass skills. But that's metagaming. My -character- doesn't know that he'll never run into a situation where his narrow skillset will be found lacking.
Take for instance the Earth elemental. The magic user can defeat it with his own native skills. Fighters and Thieves have to depend on Rakeesh or the Apothecary, respectively. Suppose those guys weren't around in Shapeir at that time - a magic-less fighter or thief would be screwed.
4. Just the way I like to play. Be as versatile as possible. Let my character refrain from being a thief not because he's too dumb/unskilled to do it, but because he chooses not to - even though in a pinch, he still could do so.

(Sorry, I assumed you actually wanted to know. ;) )


See, I just figured it was like Pokemon, and you gotta have 'em all.

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 Post subject: Re: One thing that annoys me about the QFG series...
PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 3:50 pm 
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Wow, you've really got details on your character :rollin

No one's saying you can't play that way, but the thing is, it is pretty clear that they all have somewhat stereotypical personalities, albeit in a subtle fashion. And the thing is, the class descriptions basically require something along these lines.

Fighters became fighters because they like to bash and slash things. Someone who acts like this generally prefers more head-on solutions rather than intelligent solutions (Example: Jumping down a cliff and rolling to take less damage rather than using magic to take no damage.)

Magic users became magic users because of... well, actually, I'm not sure whether it's because they love magic, or they have a natural talent, but intelligence has factored into the equation. The magic user, therefore, prefers intelligent solutions rather than stupid, harmful solutions.

The thief became a thief because he's either a kleptomaniac, he prefers the rush of doing a job, or he just wants money. Either way, this requires that he intentionally takes things that doesn't belong to him, and this is a Bad Thing. The Thief, therefore, is naturally selfish, and maybe even an asshole. He just prefers working around his problem rather than dealing with it. He's overall GOOD, but he's still got those "evil" qualities about him.

And finally, the Paladin flat-out requires a sense of honor, literally. This means they refuse to do dishonorable acts, although for a Paladin, honor does mean "working to bring about the greater good." However, there's clearly more to it than that.

1. Never kill an unarmed foe ("armed" means they are capable of fighting)
2. Always be kind and give to the needy.
3. Never steal from someone
4. Do not kill a creature that does not intend to harm you
5. Never violate the trust of someone (Example: Looking through the veil with X-Ray glasses)
6. Face a humanoid opponent in honorable combat (That is, don't throw daggers in their backs)
7. (Implied) Do not judge those who walk a different path than you

And so forth.

Knowledge of lockpicking is, well, Dark. Any situation that a Paladin would have to use lockpicking for could be solved in another, more honorable manner. Therefore, the only other use for lockpicking is to steal into someone's home, which violates the 5th and potentially 3rd rules.

(I imagine Rakeesh knows about the Thief's Sign because he's helped thieves out of a tight spot before, which is NOT a dishonorable act, and he's seen them perform the sign to other thieves. I do find it funny that Rakeesh knows and recognizes the thief's sign, and is actually rather nonchalant about receiving it from the Thief, although he does caution him)

But yeah. To be honest, you can pretend anything about the game if you so choose. However, there are still the three possible outcomes to each puzzle. The failure, the passable solution, and the optimal solution. The passable and optimal solutions change based on your character class. (It's interesting to note that regarding the cliff, there is no failure outside of having low HP, as simply falling off the cliff is a stupid move for any class, but still solves the "puzzle" so to speak). And those are the reasons for it :-)

Oh, and for the record, Sierra has always used passable and optimal solutions. King's Quest 1, for example, had several cases where you could solve a puzzle two or sometimes three different ways. Incidentally, non-violent ways often gave more points (and was the only way to get max points) than violent ways. The difference is the QFG has a lot more possible solutions, and the sole optimal solution is dependent on your character class.

So yeah. If you really want you, you can play your character however you choose. Just don't worry about the puzzle points at the same time. They don't really affect your stats or anything, and you only get a "Congratulations! You're a true hero!" if you get all 500 or 550 out of them. As for QFG5... that's just one of the many reasons I hate that game and will never play it, lol.

Actually, if you really want to be fun about it, think of your skillset as your personality builder. If you add Magic, your character is more intelligent than the average Fighter/Thief, and so knows that he can add spells to his list of weapons/bag of tricks. (Fun fact: There is actually a game over message in QFG2 that can only be gotten if you're a thief with magic, or a magic user with lockpicking and stealth. Fetching a bunch of pots will result in a nasty game over message where they all break against the floor and you get arrested) if you add Parry, then that means your Magic User/Thief is more martially minded, and knows how to use a dagger to block attacks, meaning he's putting his intelligence/cunning to martial use. If you add lockpicking AND stealth (the first is kinda pointless without the second), then your Fighter/Magic User suddenly is Dark, becoming more selfish, and something of a kleptomaniac, and the total opposite of the Paladin. While Fighters really shouldn't see the point in sneaking around when there's monsters, the Magic User would make good use of it so he can conserve his magic for more worthy matters. However, just add Stealth, and you remove the Dark. Now, you've got a Fighter who is focused. he refuses to show his face to monsters that aren't worthy, and could even be considered an assassin of sorts. Magic User is... conserving magic still.

Just realize that the optimal solution is still dependent on your class, not your skillset.


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 Post subject: Re: One thing that annoys me about the QFG series...
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 10:10 am 
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Completely agree with original poster, quest for glory is my favorite series from sierra, but quite frankly there is not enough game in there to warrant 3/4 replays with different classes.

1) The first installment clearly allowed you to be a jack of all trades, if anything the this class was specifically intended for it, I really can not envision not picking up 2 missing skills at the start.
2) The second installment and arguable the best game in the series, is sort of annoying because you can still experience everything as a fighter with full skill set but not with the other 2 classes. I.E. they decided that despite the fact that my thief whoops Uhura on a daily bases and beats the smith at arm wrestling he just does not have what i takes to be a fighter. But whatever since the game change my character to fighter anyway on import it was fine.
3) QFG3 the worst game of the theories, there was ridiculously little to do, and you could not really experience any of the cross class stuff. Use this installment to let my ex. thief become a paladin.
4) QFG4 another contender for best in series, some limitations. Basically pick if you want to be a mage or paladin, the rest of the stuff can be experienced by all.
5) QFG5 Remember being annoyed greatly by limitations based on class. But dont remember the game very well.

The personality argument only really makes sense for Paladin.


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 Post subject: Re: One thing that annoys me about the QFG series...
PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 9:06 pm 
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Thank you for the agreement, but actually I found the games a lot of fun and replayable and I've done all classes multiple times. My argument doesn't depend on this, I'd just like to be clear on that.

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