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 Post subject: "The Outer Edge of Earnon..."
PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 2:26 am 
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I am pleased to be able to show you one of the more recent screenshots I've been working on. This one, in particular, is of a "closeup window" which obviously goes along with the screenshot first posted in this topic.

It helps to demonstrate in great detail and quality, the goals this project has set for mastering the sq3/sq6 mixed art style. As usual, I imagine I'll continue improving every single screenshot of the project, from first to last, until the game is completely programmed. Everything can always be improved, but once it's good enough to carry the concept and atmosphere, or "point", I usually move on to a new screenshot, before coming back to edit a prior one.

Please feel free to add whatever you tihnk of this.

There is also now a team together for the "Outer Edge," and it consists of the following:

Mad_C33 (Samuel Lawson) - Co-Writer, Ideas, Puzzles, Dialogue, Etc. (He is also willing to assist in other aspects like programming and music in the game's future.)

Vroomfondel - Co-Writer, Ideas, Puzzles, Etc.

QuestCollector (Jeff)- Intends to assist as an Artist and with Ideas, Etc.

and Myself (obviously) - Lead Writer/Original Script, Lead Artist, Project Editor, Ideas, Puzzles, Etc.

Since the team has slowly begun to take shape, great advances have been made with Outer Edge's development, though it could still be quicker. Nonetheless, it's the greatest boost it's had since it was begun 3 years ago, and I hope things will only get better.

I've seemed to finally get a real genuine feel for doing the sci artwork. Within the past couple months, great progress has been made on coverting the original script into a more comprehensive screenplay to go by, and Sam (Mad_C33) has made some great and ingenius contributions to the plots main theme and subjects. The story is already pretty inuque as well as SQ-ish, and I feel that with our combined effort, we'll be able to make this a solid addition to the series. Vroomfondel has contributed some great humorous references and ideas. Quest (Jeff) has also been very supportive.

As it stands now, the team is still sort of waiting on me to finish the script-to-screenplay conversion, so they can forge ahead with they're ideas/editing/additions, etc. I've been sort of jumping back and forth between working on screenshots and improving the screenplay.

Because the screenplay is meant to give one the fullest sense of the completed game as possible (before it's being made), it takes a bit longer to prepare than the script did. It's not simply a jotting down of ideas. It contains dialogue, puzzles, rooms, inventory items, and possibly information on camera angles and music, to give the basic shell of and idea, so the team can see more easily the original idea, and thus help me bring it to life.

Whenever there's a bit of an issue with concentration or motivation, sometimes I jump back to my other working project. I'm trying to make sure that when I rotate, I spend at least a month at a time on each one. but when I'm on a roll, I stick with whatever one I'm currently with.

Well, anyways, I figure this is a good time to post this, since this place is just starting to seem to get a bit more lively than usual. As always, it's a pleasure being part of this community. I'll continue to keep you updated.

Sincerely,

Johnathon

P.S. I have been posting updates for this game for the past couple months at other forums, before I thought about also visiting here. If you wish to view more info on the game, feel free to check out my earlier updates

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Last edited by Johnathon on Mon Jul 26, 2010 2:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 4:36 am 
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Nice looking screenshot. It seems to be pretty close to the original SCI-dithering style. Good luck with your project.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 8:23 pm 
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Thanks, Erpy.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 10:02 pm 
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It looks incredible.  Sincere best of wishes to the project.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 10:40 pm 
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Rather impressive.  I almost mistook it as a screenshot from SQ3.  Hopefully that shows you how well you mimicked the style.  Good luck with this.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 12:10 am 
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Defiant1 wrote:
It looks incredible.  Sincere best of wishes to the project.


Thank you for your encouragement.

greensenshi wrote:
Rather impressive.  I almost mistook it as a screenshot from SQ3.  Hopefully that shows you how well you mimicked the style.  Good luck with this.


Well, I'm rather glad to hear that, since sq3/sq6 is precisely what I'm going for. Just wait til it's animated. :p And thank you.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 2:20 am 
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Are you trying to blend a mix of SQ3 and SQ6's styles?  I've only played a little of SQ6 and I seem to remember it has a more cartoony style than SQ3.  If that's an example of a finished shot then I'd say it looks more SQ3 than SQ6.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 7:35 am 
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Lookin' good!

One question though, I've looked all around the other forum and I just have question, is this a fangame or something completely original? All I know is you're trying to blend the graphical styles of SQ3 and SQ6 together but storywise is this an adventure with Roger Wilco?


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 3:21 pm 
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greensenshi wrote:
Are you trying to blend a mix of SQ3 and SQ6's styles?  I've only played a little of SQ6 and I seem to remember it has a more cartoony style than SQ3.  If that's an example of a finished shot then I'd say it looks more SQ3 than SQ6.


Color style wise, I'm shooting for SQ3, while detail and animation wise, I'm shooting for SQ6. I'm basically a fan of the original sci style games, but my goal is to bring that style to life as dynamically as possible. Having a screen resolution of 800 x 600 leaves room for greater detailing with the original sq3/sci pallete.

Broomie wrote:
Lookin' good!

One question though, I've looked all around the other forum and I just have question, is this a fangame or something completely original? All I know is you're trying to blend the graphical styles of SQ3 and SQ6 together but storywise is this an adventure with Roger Wilco?


This is a fangame with Roger Wilco, set chronologically before SQ1. It will be the story of Roger's acceptance aboard the Starlab Arcada, and end with the hijacking. Basically, it is a prequel. Aside from having a plotline which fits into original sq1 plotline, it has a unique standalone story of it's own, with new characters and villians. In case you're wondering, Vohaul plays an insidious part throughout the game, but is never shown or known to Roger. The main villain for this adventure, is someone new.


NEW UPDATE:

Well, since my last project update, I've been quite a busy man. I went on a trip to CT, and since those past couple weeks after my return, work has been quite demanding. As a rookie lead carpenter, the roof system on the home I'm working on (a combination roof, not your basic standard single hip peak) is prooving to be quite a challenge. In the midst of studying blueprints and formulas, estimating materials and proposing solutions to current problems (problems due to internet-based blueprints that had been poorly written) I haven't forgotten the Outer Edge, and have been trying to find time to escape to it here and there. :P

Anyways, I've finished Day 1 of the screenplay, and will be done with Day2 very shortly. The guys have been somehwat quite at my place, I assume waiting for more material to work on. I've been trying to keep them satisfied, as well as produce something visual to the community often enough.

Well, now that I've mentioned it, here's the visual:

Image

Nah, it hasn't taken me two weeks (since my last update) to do just that. Being a trace, it was quite simple. It took me about 3 hours total, as I'd only begun it practically last night. I was going through a bored mood, and didn't feel like writing the screenplay, so I figured I should pick something easy, to help boost my motivation, and show the community something new.

Being traditional to the classic SQ1: The Sarien Encounter (and NOT the vga remake) Roger is assigned his grey/white rank Janitorial jumpsuit,(Col. Bodge will get the Grey/Purple one instead, which Roger will not acquire obviously until SQ2, when he is promoted to head janitor) as you notice.

And, just as a note, these trace conversions are actually easy to mess up. I won't explain. But the first one I did (which took the first hour) was no good. I hadn't analyzed the impressionism of the lighting/shading correctly, and I got the color gradiations off by one level the whole way. Enough babble now.

You may notice a discrepency in style between the prior facial art I've posted, in both appearance and concept. Allow me to explain away part of it. Roger, although looking more like superman, in the last picture, only does because he is dreaming (the mental projection of his digital self, thank you Morpheus), whereas when bright awake and in the real world, he's quite lanky and funny looking (true to the series, ain't it?) I chose this particular set of facials (from the sq6 funeral sequence) to serve as Roger's closeup for the game, not only because it's precisely the style I'm shooting for (sq3/sq6, sci-cartoonish), but because I believe it depicts Roger at the age of his younger days back on Xenon quite well.

As for the differences in art style, not all these visuals are completely "touched up" yet, and by the time the game is being programmed, they will all be made more consistent, so they don't look like a bunch of fan clip art compiled into a game.

Anyways, we're still kicking. Slowly, but surely.

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Last edited by Johnathon on Mon Jul 26, 2010 2:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 3:55 am 
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I'm sorry about this double post. I just couldn't imagine cramming another edit into that same one.

Image
Image Lost with website and pc move. If you have saved a copy of it, please contact me.

Nearly two months now since my last update. About half of it was a hault in progress, but we managed to get ourselves back together. It comes and goes in phases, and it's all part of the journey.

I dug this pic up to show, cause I've assume everyone will have come to expect a new one with each update by now. It's quite far from being finished, because it will contain much interactive detail. Can you guess what it's supposed to be?

Rather than this one, I've actually found myself more interested with the recent capture of Xenon's Capitol City Grounds. It's practically just started, but I aim to have it showable by next update.

To the real stuff now, while I usually had been hooked on the graphic aspects of the game's production, lately there's been a great recent rhythm on screenplay writing. I've been feeling more enthusiastic about the scope of the story and what the finished game will contain, than I have with any of the art, and for the past 3 weeks, I've basically been hooked on that.

The rest of the team has been very enthusiastic as well. We now have twice as much screenplay done as we had before (we're now into day 3, which is the last day on Xenon, and concludes the game's "Beginning Section"), and when 3 other SQ enthusiasts like yourself, feel just as good about the material, it really helps you to realize what you've got is good stuff. The story itself is quite depthful, yet easy to follow. It's aim is to be as depthful in plot and character development/interaction as SQ5 was, which I believe took the trophy before all others in the series in that subject.

Mad_C33 has been dishing out dialogue and descriptions like a professional Sierra employee. Full of wit and humor. Vroomfondel and Questcollector have helped as well in quality assurance areas and in giving opinions and ideas. The whole team has helped in editing and improving upon the script as I have been posting it for them. We established a designated team chat for Saturdays. We all do our best to get together and contribute whatever we can.

As we come to close on the game's beginning section, a slight tone in mood change will be made. It will not be as streamlined, as it will open up on the Arcada, being such a large ship. Things will become more serious, Several secondary and important characters will be introduced, and Roger will have to work with them together to make his way through the middle section of the game. As I said, emphasis on how much character interaction there was in SQ5.

Though, as the End game section begins to take the scene, things will get lonely once again. Roger will find himself alone. The entire scope of the game is already well established and thought out; it's simply not in the improved screenplay form yet, and hasn't passed the critique of our team experts. It's only a matter of time, a matter of fleshing out and mending everything to flow together in harmony. As a whole, despite it's being a prequel, it's a completely unique and standalone adventure on it's own.

A little insight on the game's ellements. We've been discussing the interface, menu, and replayability. We have some very unique and I'm predicting very effective new ellements which will be introduced into the adventure genre. Still true to it's classic gameplay standards, yet more alive and immediate.

It's a way explainable but something I'd rather be kept secret and experienced when it comes, for the best enjoyment. Not only is gameplay going to be more unique for the adventure genre, but the game itself will be much longer than the average classic. Not the kind that drags out and puts the player to sleep, but the kind that flows like a masterpiece, mixing and matching the best ellements called for, be it politics, arcade, puzzles, streamlining, or broadening, to capture the effect needed called for by the running plot. With a bit of luck, and continued effort, and so long as we do not loose our "game-players'" side to us, and dont' rush things, we'll have a game that will play at least 1 hour and 1/2, hopefully 2, AFTER the player already knows how to beat it, and it'll run so much like a movie, that it won't wear out, if it's a good one.

Just a bit of the pie for now. Probably not the best way I could've explained things, but if I struck your curiosity, I guess I suceeded in my intent. We will continue to make Outer Edge the best thing to us, regardless of what hurtles, or how long it takes. So long as we don't sacrifice why it was begun, every year will have been well worth it. We'll keep you updated.

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Last edited by Johnathon on Mon Jul 26, 2010 2:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2007 10:02 pm 
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Very interesting blend of the SQ3 and SQ6 styles. I look forward to this. Nice work there.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2007 11:12 pm 
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Thank you, Brandon.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 4:06 pm 
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Sorry for the double post, as my last one was made 3 months ago.

I figure it's fair to stop in and keep any interested fans informed, as I never intend to go longer than 3 months without posting a new update.

A lot has happened since the last one. :)

We were going full speed, but we hit a rough spot, and stumbled a bit. nevertheless, we got back to it, and have been going full speed once again since Feb 2nd.

It can be attributed to a number of things. Without including too much detail, I changed jobs twice beginning Nov 20th, as my previous employer (my family's business) went under basically. Nevertheless, I have bounced back, though it disrupted my rhythm a bit.

A great amount of it was also the result of capping the Beginning Game section. Introducing a good number of the secondary characters was lengthy and somewhat difficult, and included alot of dialogue scripting. Nevertheless, it was also quite fun, and has turned out very satisfactory. We are now working on Screenplaying the Arcada and beginning the Middle Game section. There will still be a few more secondary characters to introduce as soon as Roger boards, as well as some background information to lay down and then sweep up. After that, it's full speed adventuring. It will only get easier.

The main throughline regarding the plot objectives and villains is progressing very nicely. The balance of the cut-scenes and "meanwhiles" I think are just right. the suspense is gaining momentum and escalating. The player can feel a sense of purpose/goal, and something to look foreward to, something to anticipate and fear happening. The plot thickens.

During my two-month absence from the team, things became pretty quiet at QG6, but Questcollector had been busy attempting his best at a screenshot for Xenon City. His help is greatly appreciated, and hopefully soon, once he tackles the 16 color sci style, we'll both be able to dish out screens for the game, giving me some assistance so i don't have to do it all myself. I regret to inform you we have no new images to show you this update. We'll aim for the next one. :oops:

Mad_C33 has as usual been posting many good ideas for jokes, deaths, and other dialogue and plot points. Vroomfondel has been encouraging as well with his own ideas. Austin2359 may join the team later on, I'm assuming as a programmer mainly, but I don't want to pressure him. Still, he has access to our private dev areas, and has been posting some good ideas and suggestions.

Nevertheless, before beginning the screenplay for the Middle Game, I think I'll enjoy taking a good break from writing for a week or so, and attempt a new screenshot myself. Then get back to it.

I'd like to share some estimated facts about the game's features that I've come up with during my time anaylzing the gameplay for the Starlab Arcada and onward.

I estimate the game to contain anywhere from between 132 and 180 unique screenshots. this may come as a shock, and seem like too much for an adventure game, but the dynamic changes in style and other fearless attempts we're staking will help it to work.

A brief note: additional estimates past the "132" are a result of the impressive arcade sequences we will be attempting, thus counting many of those as screens.

The StarLab Arcada will contain at least 19 unique locations, and locations doesn't designate screens, as each "ship location" can contain more than one screenshot. The Arcada is much larger than depicted (internally) in SQ1/SQ1VGA, but still remains "faithful" to the original, with no major conceptual changes.

The plot for the adventure runs on a screenplay approximately 23 days long. Though, 14 days of it will have passed by seemingly instantaniously to Roger, due to a unique plot ellement. So, it's more accurate to say that the gameplay experience will basically run on 11 days. Story vs. Gameplay, you get it?

The rest of the details regarding this, I am keeping confidential for now. As we forge ahead to the StarLab Arcada, the "puzzle experience" will shift from the simple "narrow" speedy style to the slowed-down "broad" style, with plenty ship locations to explore. Sketching and designing the new Arcada is going to be a blast.

In case I had never revealed this information earlier, here is a list of characters in the game...

Jerry

Blanche (Roger's love interest)

Col. Bodge (taken from the comics, Roger's supervisor)

Butston Freem

Vohaul

Charles Benzeen (Pres. of Nucleotherm. I chose this name based upon the assumption this character is somewhat official, though I'm not sure, and I wonder if it was entirely Trols Pleimort's creation in his novel. If he, or anyone else holds any objections to my use of the name, please feel free to say so. I'll either credit him for it or think up a new name myself. Phew! mouthful.)

Dave

Hugh

Prof. Matthew Frye (Slash Vohaul under an alias name, from the comics.)

Randy

Stuart

Spaztic Rearch Droid

Amongst others (though any in addition to the above will not likely be secondary/important characters. Just bodies.)

I hope this update was interesting enough for you. We are alive and still kicking. We are kicking quite hard actually. Things are running pretty smoothly.

Sincerely,

Johnathon

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 4:31 pm 
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Wow! That's quite an all-star cast! Hope you can afford them all!

j/k  :p

I really hope you pull it off. Sounds like it's gonna be great.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 11:06 pm 
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Hah! Yeah, I had to bribe Vohaul with the script rights to this SQ12 parallel episode I've been working on. :p

Actually, many of the names I'd mentioned there, I didn't mean to give the impression they would be secondary/important characters. They were bodies I discovered in SQ1VGA, so they fill this "consistency gap."

In fact, Vohaul's not even a secondary character.

Secondary Characters (that is, those who are development thoroughly and can interact with Roger frequently throughout the adventure) include...

Bodge
Jerry
Blanche
Benzeen
Freem

Possibly a couple more will be discovered later.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 11:08 pm 
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To show you how sincerely I've been preparing for our next update, here's the screen I've been working on for the past 3 plus weeks. It's not finished. I'll continue working on it though. I wanted to show you before I said goodbye indefinately.

Image
Xenon City Main Capitol Grounds, with Star Wars Easter Egg (can you find the easter egg?)


EDIT: Due to the personal nature of this post, I have deleted most of the details. Basically, the project was disrupted two years ago, and it is now in production once more. Please read ahead for more visuals and information.

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Last edited by Johnathon on Mon Jul 26, 2010 3:01 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 11:33 pm 
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Beaten?  Holy **** that... is just not right at all.  That's also rather frightening to hear.

The screens look good.  I hope the best for you.  Don't give up just because you don't have internet access.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 3:20 am 
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Indeed not. I kept chugging away at KQ2SCI until I got internet again 5 months later. Worth it, it was.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 5:58 am 
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Looking further at that screenshot... did you lift the background of Vohaul's fortress right from SQ4 disk version?  Or is that drawn by you too?

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 1:07 pm 
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It looks like he was tracing over it.

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 Post subject: Re: "The Outer Edge of Earnon..."
PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 3:10 pm 
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Previously Posted:
Quote:
It's not finished.

As you can see, I didn't even quite finish the four buildings. The last one I was working on was the upper right corner (white/blue one).

So, I never got to finish the street, sidewalks, supercomputer background area, as well as various touch up details. When I do end up tracign over it, it won't be a complete building. this story is set several years before completion of the supercomputer project (before it became vohaul's fort) and will serve as a building under construction in the background as sort of a red herring. Just for fun. The supercomputer backstory doesn't really have any place in the running plot of this chapter.

And, of course, I shall not stop working on the game because of internet access. It's just, quite depressing because my team will be bored to death and I won't be able to post updates to the community. Thank you guys and everyone here for all your support thus far, and wish me good fortune please.


NEW UPDATE:


The team is back in action...
Screenshot images previously expired have been re-posted throughout this topic

Here it is, almost 9 months exactly since my last post on this (at the JT), and alot has happened since then.

It is very unfortunate that the project development has been so crippled all this time. I feel concern for fans who have been wishing to follow this project, and I regret how little has been mentioned to explain the cause of this slow-down and the lack of updates.

Anyone continuing to follow my postings after March of 2008 will know that the project has not been completely dropped. You will also recall that I made a little burst of significant progress over this last summer with programmin the game's gui and releasing the newest screen, just priorly posted in this topic.

But this burst was way too short lived, just as the last one (of Jan - March 2008 was). It's ironic how much potential the project has, how well my team and I are set on seeing it come to life, how much I've toned my artistic abilities to the sci medium, and yet how little progress has been made.



But with failure comes wisdom, and with time, comes experience. I truly believe that the longer we decide to hang on, despite all obstacles and setbacks, the more sure we can all be that this project will not be extinguished until it is complete. Furthermore, I have a few more points I'd like to bring to light, which should hopefully leave you with a positive impression for the production of this project from here on out:



When the Outer Edge was concieved, back in December of 2003, and while it was produced by me behind the scenes for the next four years (before I got a team together), it was a naive fans fantasy. Something very good, original, and desirable, yet not something likely to ever come aboutconsidering my status as no more than a desperate fan...

... Since March of 2008 (for the past two years) I have matured both as a writer as well as an artist. Where before I had been a highschool dropout, I am now a sophomore in college with an excellent record and reputation at the institutions where I have studied. I have learned how to make deadlines consistently and I have expanded into several mediums of art and created much literary fiction on the side (always admired and complimented by college professors).


I realize that this information may come as a bit random, and perhaps I've touched upon it a bit already in my less-so-recent postings, but I am simply typing this from my heart, to all those following the Outer Edge: I have full confidence in my abilities and in my decision to finish this project. You can expect to see some good updates soon after this post (I will do my best to update once every 3 - 6 months).

And you can expect production to speed up once again. I do believe that the last screen posted (Roger peering), only produced in 10 days time over the last weeks of my summer, demonstrates how the screenshots production has sped up.


It will be impossible for me to rectify with words in this single post what has transpired over these past two years, and so I do not wish to wear out my welcome and appear bland. I must make this a brief update, but let me give you a little more information:


The script is in the same good state as it was ever before, and it is a VERY rich script

We have all the screens we had before, except the Monolith Burger Interior screen which had been prior posted in this topic. Unprofessional and humiliating as this may seem, I have the humility to ask any fan with a copy of it to come forward and contact me. Why? Because I'm persistent, and I and my team mean business.

The new expected release date for the first version of this adventure, is December of 2014. That is truthfully a very reasonable and possible release date for such an elaborate, rich, and complete adventure game, going at the pace I am (if I ever get another artist to help me who's skills are up to par with mine, that time could potentially be cut in half.) I hope you are glad to hear this news. For, although it seems awhile off, as I've said, I have matured in experience with producing art and writing fiction, and making deadlines. A realistic release date prediction of Dec 2014 is much better than a naive prediction of 2012.


Please stay tuned, and thank you for your continued interest in the adventure.

Sincerely,

Johnathon

P.S. For those of you who don't follow this topic at the JT, I have posted below some more screenshots I have released for the project:

Image
Introduction Hallway Clip


Image
Roger Peering Hallway Clip

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 Post subject: Re: "The Outer Edge of Earnon..."
PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 11:46 pm 
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Awesome, I tried to replicate what your team did there with the art and couldn't do it as well as seen in these screens. :eek

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 Post subject: Re: "The Outer Edge of Earnon..."
PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 4:55 am 
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I only wish I could show you some of the earliest attempts I'd made, when I was only 18 years old. I have to say, it wasn't until I was at least 21 that I finally began to get a feel for the medium (of course, if I'd not dilly-dallied and felt so discouraged by it, I probably would've mastered it sooner, but it took quite awhile to click.)

And, much as I wish it were the case, my team has had nothing to do with the visuals up to this point. I have co-writers, puzzle designers, and various quality-assurance and other ideas members, but I would kill to have an artist with at least a decent amount of artistic talent. Even if I had to edit alot of his/her work for consistency, it'd be great to have help with designing sketches, animations, or even basic compositions to be filled by myself with color and texture.

If I had just one artist to help me, who could at least produce one complete, quality composition per week, in scale, I'd say production time would be cut by a third. Now, if that artist had the ability to color and texture as well as I do, time would be cut nearly in half.

Thank you very much for the compliment. ;)

P.S. Actually, now that I recall, one of my team members was about to dive into the sci art with me (two years ago), but he hasn't been very active lately, although he is a member of our team still. Perhaps he'll get back to it and try to master it, if he feels he would enjoy doing some of the art? :)

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 Post subject: Re: "The Outer Edge of Earnon..."
PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 9:51 am 
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wow, those pics are great! the first one reminds me of the art from some of those text-heavy games from Legend.


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 Post subject: Re: "The Outer Edge of Earnon..."
PostPosted: Sat Jul 31, 2010 3:04 pm 
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Well, thank you, phpbb3, and it's great to meet you.

Though, I think I recall posting to you quite a few times before. ;)

(is that too much? :o )

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