Online Community Philosophy (Split Thread)

[eriqchang]

Cesar is one of my absolute favourite people. He is someone who understands what it means to be respectful and proper - values I think any evolved human being should aspire to. He knows how to make someone feel special and worthy of their gifts... something that can't be said about everyone in this community. He is also an extremely good business man with a keen understanding of what it takes to build a community and a Sierra-inspired company. Again, something that can't be said about everyone in this community... envy, jealousy, and outright bitterness seem commonplace when you have given so much of yourself.

This is the same way I feel about people like Steven. I'm not familiar with many of you but I've had plenty of time to check out the very different forums and I would be lying if I said that I spent more time on the Phoenix forum than I did browsing the IA forum which I find really hilarious. But that's simply because I tend to have a very dirty, crude sense of humour and not an aversion to bright pink avatars and rainbow signatures.

I think people should spend more time elevating and pushing people up than bringing people down. And we should be especially thankful for those who are spending more than half of their lives inspiring people to be better and to achieve more with their lives.

Seraphim, oftentimes, I feel that I'm a lesbian fish trapped in a gay man's body.

[Klytos]

I think the common misconception about IA is that people don't really believe we just love our little hobby and that's really all that drives us. We're not out to change the world, or people's opinions about anything. Heck, if you prefer AGDI's or even the original KQ3 more than ours, great! Glad you enjoyed it. That's what games are about. Enjoyment. We just take that to the next level by making them as well as playing them. Our production at IA died, and I mean it went to zero literally, when QFG2 came out.

You're right about Steve, Eriq. He is one of the good ones, a real gentleman (at times) and also intelligent and witty. And damn funny.

[Gronagor]

Yeah... you'll notice Eriq have a rather 'dark' approach to his work. Majority of his sites and graphic-works tend to have a black background. LOL! Look at his more recent work that even include black cats! ROFL! Just kidding.

Actually glad all sites/forums ain't the same (not only graphical style, but also attitude and type of humor). Makes life interesting.

envy, jealousy, and outright bitterness

Dammit. You're talking about me, ain't ya!?! What did they call me elsewhere on this forum? Groanmonger. That's it.

[pbpb33]

As someone who used the POS forum around the time their TSL Episode 1 came out, I remember the unfortunate reaction of some on the TSL team to some of the criticism they were getting. One had even posted what resembled an (ill-advised, in my opinion) "Dear Haters" letter, if I remember correctly. If a few people had written out-of-line, nasty things about you or your product, presumably to hurt your feelings, why reward them with a response posted so prominently? Also, there was almost the sense that, unless you praised Episode 1 to the hilt, you were being somehow "ungrateful" or "rude" or "insensitive" to the feelings of the team members. I'm exaggerating a little bit, but it was something I felt. Now, to their credit, the POS forum moderators did allow opposing views in members' posts, and it seemed like, as time went on, they were more tolerant of people voicing criticism. Of course, "flaming" and insults of a very personal nature shouldn't be tolerated, and anyone who does that habitually ought to be banned, IMO, but that's not the kind of thing I ever saw someone like Lambonius do there. From what I saw, just as he does on AGDI forums, he posted many thoughtful messages that were always worth reading. If he does it in a feisty way, then better yet. Isn't it good to have on discussion forums passionate, opinionated people with no agenda other than to freely express their honest opinions? I haven't really looked into the IA forums ( and should I be scared to now that I'm getting the impression from some of these descriptions that they're the "bad boys" of the AGS community? hehe, j/k) nor have I seen all the criticism that has been directed at POS or other teams, but I just think that it's important to develop a thick skin about these things. No one likes having their work criticized (especially when it's done in a nasty way by people who may or may not be envious), but as long as someone continues to publish work, it's always going to happen... so better learn to toughen up now.

[Anonymous Game Creator 2]

I've grown quite receptive to criticism over the years. People who voice it generally can only help you to make a better product next time. It's really up to the receiver of that criticism whether they're going to take things to heart, or listen and determine if there's actually a shortcoming (and if so, try to address it).

I've realized that it can take a fair bit of experience to know how to read people/fans to the point where you know which critiques to take seriously and which ones are just trolls. But I have always tried to take all valid criticisms on board and attempted to fix them in subsequent releases (hence all of the revisions of our games!)

It can sometimes be difficult to look at things from a objective perspective when it seems like a lot of people are ripping into a game you've spent a long time developing, but at the same time, this is the net where talk is cheap and anyone can say anything behind the veneer of anonymity. Sometimes non-issues are amplified to the point where they seem important. Learn how to gauge what's worth investing your time (and emotional energy) into and you'll end up focusing much more on the things that will help improve your skills/games and less on pastimes that are pointless time-sinks.

[Klytos]

Very true Chris. I think what AGDI learned very early on was not to rise to the bait of obvious envy or simple tall-poppy cutting. To sift the wheat from the chaff so to speak, find what's good in people's opinions and what was irrelevant. I know when our KQ3 was released we had a lot of praise which was easy to take, but had some ardent criticism as well which wasn't easy to take. It's easy to tell people to fuck off, we made the game and you do better. It's harder to say, you know, that's a good point.

For a great example of this, watch this. It's about World of Warcraft but relevant to the topic.

[Anonymous Game Creator 2]

Haha, the "reality" TV cynic in me wonders if this red shirt guy isn't a plant, who's been placed in the audience by Blizzard with pre-scripted questions so that their answers will look good.

[Erpy]

Seraphim, oftentimes, I feel that I'm a lesbian fish trapped in a gay man's body.

(recalls spending a week at Eriq's place in 2007 where he convinced Brit (and Rich) to draw cartoon fish with him all week)

Now THAT creates an interesting new perspective on those past events.

[Jerminator]

Erpy was right about that thread being linked to on a bunch of different sites. Because we will be getting a ton of new visitors, I wanted to make sure we were concentrating on the appropriate topic.

I'm not necessarily saying drop the subject, but please keep the conversation non-hostile. Things like telling someone to go sit on a cactus really isn't appropriate. m'kay?

Personally, I dont think telling someone to "go sit on a cactus" is hostile, now if I said "go jump off a cliff" that might be overboard, but it was all in good fun.

[Lambonius]

How did this turn into a discussion about constructive criticism?

This thread began with an out-of-the-blue post in another thread that was clearly intended only to bait with no real goal other than elevating the original poster's already inflated sense of self-worth.

Now, if the topic of the other thread had been IA's group manifesto or some such thing, then perhaps the aforementioned post would have at least been relevant, if not constructive.

This isn't the first time specific POS members have sought IA members out of the the blue in the far corners of the Sierra community just to try and passive aggressively imply their moral superiority. It's just tiresome. And we're the ones being called immature.

[MusicallyInspired]

This isn't the first time specific POS members have sought IA members out of the the blue in the far corners of the Sierra community just to try and passive aggressively imply their moral superiority.

This is true.

[Jerminator]

Im over this entirely but:

I realize that if a community wants to have a good reputation they might monitor their forums and discussions to try to keep them on topic and intelligent, thats not the problem. If someone drives a topic offcourse it should be split into another topic if moderation is necessary, but deleting someone's post entirely which was done to my post on this topic its just not necessary. Especially since it was not flaming and was outright respectful. This has powertrip all over it, and silencing someones viewpoint and leaving another available. I haven't used one curse word or attacked anyone personally. Freedom of speech much?

I think the start of this topic was driven out of a need to downgrade IA as a respectful member of the Classic gaming community. IA is not any better or worse than any other community, their just "different" which I think is a healthy and fun. I like it there and would invite anyone to visit their forums and judge for themselves. Quite frankly I cant see someone's post being entirely deleted unless it is spam or outright madness.

As for the other hostile remark: Find a small pointy one, should be about right.

[Gronagor]

Ah. And there you spoiled a nice civilized thread.

[Lambonius]

Ah. And there you spoiled a nice civilized thread.

Civily worded? Perhaps. Intentioned? I don't think so.

I just find this obsession with IA's mentality confusing. I am also a bit confused by Cez. He essentially trolled and flamed us in that thread, derailing it in the process (which has been addressed with the thread split.) Then, it sparks some conversation about how we don't warmly welcome everyone with complementary ego-stroking at our forums. The picture he paints however is rather far from the truth. The way it reads to me, you would think we were over there just waiting to cyber-bully unsuspecting first-time posters--which certainly is not the case.

We strongly encourage people and often offer help. Blackthorne even responds to TONS of emails from fans. We are true to ourselves, yes, which might mean the occasional swear or crude joke. That's really just human nature though. It's foolish to fight that and I wouldn't expect it. Being able to take a joke is part of being an adult and pivotal to being a part of IA. I guess the exception would be that if someone comes over and starts acting like a tool, we will call them out on it, particularly if they are flaming us for no reason. We are fine with valid criticism though.

Perhaps I am a bit biased, but it seems to me that smearing IA has become just another POS PR tool. While accusing us of being antisocial jerks whose forums are unfit for the average user, a nice rosy picture of the POS forums is being painted--where ego-stroking is common and all are welcome.

I'm just calling 'em as I see 'em--which is what IA, to me, is all about.

[Gronagor]

Come on Lamby. If you read all the posts you'll see everyone's agreeing that although your styles and attitudes differ, there's a place for both types of communities. Leave it be. No point in continuing a pointless argument which really doesn't have an answer. Really not worth the effort...

[Anonymous Game Creator 2]

Super Fan-Team Smash 'Em Up, coming soon to a store near you!

Suggestion: How about both of you guys just ignore the little things that get on your nerves and not rise to take the bait? It's not really THAT big a deal, is it?

[cez]

Thank you, Eriq.

As for IA, I apologize for the comment, I won't give my views again on what you guys do.

And my apologies to the AGDI staff as well for taking their forums as the arena of choice.

As for everything else, I already emailed the guy I needed to email about this. Hopefully, things will get better between IA and PO, too. That is really all that I want.

[Erpy]

Just a little note:

realize that if a community wants to have a good reputation they might monitor their forums and discussions to try to keep them on topic and intelligent, thats not the problem. If someone drives a topic offcourse it should be split into another topic if moderation is necessary

Actually, the splitting of derailing discussion into another topic is an option, but I don't think it's something posters are automatically entitled to.

but deleting someone's post entirely which was done to my post on this topic its just not necessary. Especially since it was not flaming and was outright respectful. This has powertrip all over it, and silencing someones viewpoint and leaving another available. I haven't used one curse word or attacked anyone personally.

It's been quite a long while since I stepped in and said "that's enough" and I'm usually fairly reserved with that, but when I do step in, I mean it. And if somebody continues the argument anyway after I posted, even if his post does not contain any insults (as was indeed the case with your post), then yes, I consider that post fair game for deletion. I assure you it's not a powertrip. I've found more creative ways to manage my self esteem.

Freedom of speech much?

I'm not the US government, so your first amendment does not work on me.

Super Fan-Team Smash 'Em Up, coming soon to a store near you!

Suggestion: How about both of you guys just ignore the little things that get on your nerves and not rise to take the bait? It's not really THAT big a deal, is it?

Oh wow, it this what this kind of thing looks like from an outside perspective? I know we used to somehow always be in the middle of this kind of thing.

Agreed though. You can get caught up in this kind of thing, but really, I don't think this is worth starting any feuds over.

EDIT: Cez beat me to it.

[Jerminator]

By all means, feel free to voice your opinions Cez.

Just create a new topic next time

[Blackthorne519]

Hey. I love all you guys. Let's hug it out, bitches.


Bt

[Jerminator]

No way Bt, I dont hug yankee thugs!!

[Quest For Glory Fan]

I don't know if this is representative of the communities and this post is not indicative over "which is best" but seeing as how we've been put on the topic of communal differences I think that as a long time poster and reader I have a lot to say on the subject. To start with, I actually had never played Either King's Quest remake AGDI had done until YEARS after I started posting here. The products don't even matter to me, I was one of the few still reading the months after QFG2 was released. The first time I played KQ1VGA was this year or so and I really really enjoyed it and played through it 5 or 6 times but I wasn't about to come gushing back here to tell the world and I wasn't about to write a 5 star review at the AGS site. For the record though I really do like all three AGDI games a lot, every click I make I appreciate something new. For those that think they have surpassed this level of craftsmanship (Ie: OP) and want to share it in a non confrontational way I have a little anecdote.

Now, in the past, when Eriq was new to AGDI and posted concepts he had done I was floored by the quality of his work. It was better than anything I had seen in any of the communities and usually in fan made games the art is really what kills it. It's probably why I was afraid of playing the first King's Quest remakes. Back to Eriq though, some people didn't like his style, that's fine, but one poster in particular (and I tell this story often) decided to trash all the work he had done with absolutely nothing good to say. There was no "but if the shading was different" or "the scale of the hero's arm doesn't quite fit" it was just pure drivel. So, like a good poster I wrote exactly that. I told him his post was stupid and I was outright pissed at him for not only being rude but for not offering anything constructive either. I later got a PM from Eriq that was something along the lines of "If I cared what people like that thought I never would have agreed to do the art, here's a poster" I was just as floored as that poster still is (because seriously it is hard to get a frame for that in a small town ) What I'm trying to say in a round about way is that even if there is negative reaction to something you create on your time and for the public with nothing to expect in return it doesn't give you the right to not take it in stride. From the cross posting I've seen from POS which is admittedly the only posting I see this idea of stride is very hard to come by. AGDI is pretty careful about ignoring it but I think Eriq's example is a nice parallel.

IA is similar, I was there from it's foundations and it was a mature place just as I was starting to be. It was the first group of people I could hang out with, talk about various body parts and not have anyone feel the slightest bit uncomfortable, or if there were they didn't post in my threads. I'm pretty sure one of my first threads there was about whether it is advisable to have sex in the shower. Again even after KQ3 was released I didn't play it. I didn't play it until last June and even then I think I played it about an hour. It's not about the games to me it's about the people. I won't lie to you, BT is the greatest human being I have ever not met... seriously take the time to talk to him and you'll understand in an instant. Now I'm not polishing knobs over here there are a ton of great people across all the communities but as far as POS I have not heard a single positive thing. Is it the circles I run within? Maybe IA can be your harshest critic but they aren't critics at all. They are peers even if you don't treat them as such (or they to you or whatever the case may be) No one is out to be the very best in the community. This isn't Pokemon. Everyone has common interests and goals and a huge level of respect. Even though philosophically there are huge differences between IA and AGDI I never see them on the forums being catty to each other, this inaction speaks volumes.

Now I know I've taken a lot of your time if anyone has gotten this far but what I'm really stressing here is "can't we all just get along?" There's no need for anyone to be hostile at all, there's no need for any competition, direct or indirect and this has been touched upon by others. And there is especially no need for this passive aggressive crap. I admit that I haven't spent much time on the POS forums, however, seeing as how there are a lot of respectable opinions on these ones I don't have an urge to go there this instant. I never cared for the idea of the silver lining, if anything I found it pretentious but the posting about them is kinda of similar don't you think? All the complaints being based on this lack of respect and superiority complex there are some parallels here between the creators and the work (insert joke about magic mirror from KQ). I'm not saying anything bad about the game itself just that the idea is not my cupt of tea. But please, the next time you (as in anyone) is thinking of posting something to goad people into an emotional response based on mutual resentment from other peers, know that the closest you're going to get is something like this; a well worded and/or verbose "**** off" just like everyone else in here has been too nice to type at one time or another.

[Blackthorne519]

You guys all make me blush. Thanks for the compliments, everyone. You know, I've enjoyed becoming friends with all of you over the years.

I'm just glad that communities like this exist at all - I loved these games so much in my youth, that having this around today makes me really happy. Sometimes things you enjoy just slip into obscurity. AGDI really kept the flame alive when it looked like it would die, and that's really awesome.


Bt

[MusicallyInspired]

Wow, what a fantastic post, QFGF. If I could +1 you I would.......20 times.

[cez]

Let's put things into perspective here.

Phoenix Online has always been the “outside” crowd. First, there was AGDI, and IA was formed from people that used to hang out in AGDI and had the same mindset and approach on Sierra products. I always think that the people from here and there sees PO as the “strange kid that wanted to be different, and that wasn't part of this crowd”.

Which is fine. We didn't really go out of our ways, we stayed in a little corner working and trying to do what we wanted to do. We were ambitious, perhaps too ambitious, but our goal was not to be better than anyone else. However, that seemed to be how people judged us. We were the guys that made a big mess out of the Sierra properties, the guys that were on the news, the guys that got the attention. But, none of that was to say “hey, we are better than you”.

I heard things like, when the whole Vivendi thing happened, we were actually conspiring and was all planned. Wait, what? Really? Then, even when we were shut down past year, you could read comments in one particular IA thread wishing we never saw the light of day, and speaking so much crap about us that it simply baffled me as to what exactly we did to get people that pumped, in a bad way, about us.

Comes the announcement of our agreement with Activision and the upcoming release. Another thread at IA with more nasty comments. At that point I decided to go over there to make amends. To me, it is simple. We are all doing the same at the end, we are keeping Sierra alive. However we choose to do it, by keeping it simple, by keeping it VGA, by trying to do something new, darker, or by changing established products and enhancing their storyline, we are all doing the same thing. There is absolutely no need for rivalry, because we are not competing against one another. I understand this very well, and have always understood it. I have offered a hand to the guys at IA and even, when offering help, I worried about their legal status and recommended not to use our full reach because that could lead into troubles. If I was a different guy, I would not care less. But I do. I know what it is to put one of these games together, all the work that goes into that, and it would piss me off very badly to see IA go through what we went through, especially knowing the uncertainty that goes along with it and how frustrating it all is.

Comes the release of Episode 1. A number of IA guys invade our forums. Where before those same members had come with a great attitude towards what we were trying to do, now there was... I'd say a will to bring us down? Maybe I'm exaggerating, and maybe I'm seeing things where they are just trying to really give their good feedback, but I don't think I'm fully wrong when I say there was a certain level of nastiness that came with it. When I would switch over to their forums, the comments were just astounding in their negativity, to the point where even members of their own forums would point it out.

We showed some resistant to criticism, who doesn't? But eventually, we heard all the comments they made, and tried to do our best to implement what we could, how we could. But apparently, we were still a bunch of ego-driven people that would not listen. Eventually, some people turned the whole thing into mocking us and the people in our forums, to the point where if you see the activity of some very active members in our forums from their side, and then see the comments that they made in their forums about what they posted on our site, you realize that there is an enjoyment in crapping on who we are and what we do. Time and time again. Time and time again.

Now, I am very patient guy. But I will admit to being bruised every once in a while. I bottle things up until I make the very bad mistake of slashing back. But, like I mentioned BT in a personal message, if I made a comment like the one at the beginning of this thread is because sometimes I feel the community of IA is very disrespectful towards Phoenix Online. And mess all you want with me, but I will defend my team with capes and spades. We have never, ever, done anything directly to them to incite that, and we have very rarely lashed back. We are just a bunch of guys doing our things and we want to get along with the rest of the communities.

And who doesn't get pissed off at constant mal-intentioned nagging? I know everytime they receive an email from a guy who does nothing but crap on them, they get pissed off –to the point that even BT made a diary entry about it. So, don't they understand? Don't they see it? One day they complaint about a guy that's crapping on their work, because, how dare he, and the next day, they are doing the exact same thing to us?

Maybe like Eriq told me, I need to stay away from the community, and I just need to focus on the work we do, and bring a new King's Quest to the thousands of fans that do want it. But I love the community, and I try my best to take good intended criticism in a good way, or ignore some comments from people who has too much time in their hands and want to be jack**es just because –like that guy “demaking” our game. But when it's a group of people that we are supposed to get along with, it just baffles me to the point where I don't understand it. Maybe I'm just too naïve and too idealistic, and this is life, like they said.

So, have I fallen into the same game? Yes, I have, I can only take so much. Do I want it to continue? No, of course not. Do we think we are superior to anyone else? Heck, no. I look up at AGDI everyday and I'm still amazed at their incredible management skills of how, in a little more time than TSL has been in development, they've put out 4 remakes and 1 commercial game. That is impressive and something I've always admired, and I always point it as the example of what I wish PO to become in the future. I enjoy their success and support them everytime I get the chance to do so.

In the same way, I admire IA because their production skills are very promising and they are following the same path as AGDI. With the release of King's Quest 3, Space Quest 2 about to be released, and KoS in production, that is impressive. I know there are genuinely good persons over there that I wish I had more time to cultivate deeper friendships with aside from the occasional facebook message, and I believe that they will continue to put out great products that will make me travel back to my childhood days.

I also believe that we are doing the best we can at TSL to also bring joy to people. Because, even if it's true that we are now using it to reach higher, this project is truly a labor of love. Maybe you don't like the story, maybe you think we moved too far away from what you considered KQ, and maybe you are pissed off that we got the press, and even the blessings of the creators. Maybe those are reasons to hate what we do, I don't know, but what I do know is that deep down inside we are just a bunch of developers working with no money, putting many sleepless nights into this project to bring it to the people that want it, in exchange for nothing.

And that makes us not the “different kid” from you, but exactly the same kind.

So if you guys want to keep the barrier up, keep it up and continue bashing on us at every opportunity you get. But when you get tired of that, we'll be on the other side ready to shake hands. And there's no complex of superiority in there, just a genuine invitation.

Sincerely,

Cesar Bittar