Narnia

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daventry · #1 Post by **daventry** » Sun Jan 29, 2006 8:59 am

I saw The Chronicles Of Narnia at the Movies yesterday and i really liked it, in my opinion it was better then Harry Potter.

I dont know the Books or the TV Show, but when i saw the Movie, it started out good, but then it all of a sudden looked like someone pressed the Fast Forward Button and the Movie ends just when it was starting to get interesting. Im still confused as to what the Movie is about.

I saw on the Internet that the Second Movie will come out in 2007 and i read that they will turn all 5 books into Movies and maybe the last two Books to Movies aswell.

If they make all 7 Books into Movies, the last Movie will end up in 2020

I never knew there were 7 Books http://books.narnia.com/chronicles/books/index.html and it looks like the TV Series stopped at the Silver Chair, any reason why they didint continue the TV Series. http://www.tv.com/the-chronicles-of-nar ... l&season=1

You can now buy the TV Series on DVD aswell, http://www.hmv.co.uk/hmvweb/displayProd ... sku=433536 but i think i'll buy the New Movie version of Narnia on DVD

Witch is better, the TV version, or the Movie version.

I hope this Movie "Or Movies" doesent become Harry Potter Versions where they cut out big important parts just to confuse the people who never read the Books.

I can already see that Narnia is much better then Harry, ooh lets start a Poll just for the fun of it. "Witch 7 Books/Movies are more Fantastical and Magical in everyway"

If that person had lived a few years ago and started writing the 7 Books Of Narnia with JK Rowling who started her 7 Books of Harry, would they have real Competition.

Its a weird way to start when this person wrote the books, he writes a second book where he tells us the beginning of everything, but the First Book plus the 3d, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, continues the Story. The Second Book is like a Giant Flash Back and it should've been the First Story to tell.

JustLuke29 · #2 Post by **JustLuke29** » Sun Jan 29, 2006 9:13 am

The Narnia books are actually pretty poor, in my opinion. They're very shallow and simplistic. They're also saturated with Christian propaganda which is something I fundamentally object to. Shame on you C. S. Lewis.

Angelus3K · #3 Post by **Angelus3K** » Sun Jan 29, 2006 9:21 am

JustLuke29 wrote:The Narnia books are actually pretty poor, in my opinion. They're very shallow and simplistic. They're also saturated with Christian propaganda which is something I fundamentally object to. Shame on you C. S. Lewis.

The so-called propaganda is only their if your looking for it. I've read the books many times and have never thought to myself oh thats religious etc I've just been gripped with the story.

And in my opionon the Narnia books are amazing. If you liked the film, you'll love the books!

JustLuke29 · #4 Post by **JustLuke29** » Sun Jan 29, 2006 10:32 am

The problem with the Christian propaganda in the Narnia books is that it isn't obvious. They're despicable because they subtly influence young, naive and impressionable minds to accept certain ideas and concepts as being right and good.

For example, a child may not notice the allegory between the resurrection of Aslan and Jesus but, having read the book, that child may then be more susceptible to believing the Christian story of Jesus's death and resurrection. The worst, most pernicious propaganda is the sort that works on a subconscious level.

Gav · #5 Post by **Gav** » Sun Jan 29, 2006 1:09 pm

I hope this Movie "Or Movies" doesent become Harry Potter Versions where they cut out big important parts just to confuse the people who never read the Books.

I doubt that they will cut much at all, since the Narnia books are all about 200 pages long, whereas the Harry Potter books are generally twice as long as this. Rather, I felt that the LW&W movie was padded out a bit to make up for the short and, yes, simplistic story.

In my opinion the Harry Potter books are a better read. Nonetheless, the Chronicles of Narnia are still a pretty good read.

Spikey · #6 Post by **Spikey** » Sun Jan 29, 2006 3:10 pm

JustLuke29 wrote:The problem with the Christian propaganda in the Narnia books is that it isn't obvious. They're despicable because they subtly influence young, naive and impressionable minds to accept certain ideas and concepts as being right and good.

For example, a child may not notice the allegory between the resurrection of Aslan and Jesus but, having read the book, that child may then be more susceptible to believing the Christian story of Jesus's death and resurrection. The worst, most pernicious propaganda is the sort that works on a subconscious level.

Let me quote the writer:

C.S. Lewis wrote:Some people seem to think that I began by asking myself how I could say something about Christianity to children; then fixed on the fairy tale as an instrument, then collected information about child psychology and decided what age group I'd write for; then drew up a list of basic Christian truths and hammered out 'allegories' to embody them. This is all pure moonshine. I couldn't write in that way. It all began with images; a faun carrying an umbrella, a queen on a sledge, a magnificent lion. At first there wasn't anything Christian about them; that element pushed itself in of its own accord.

So no, it wasn't deliberate, and definately not propaganda. As Lewis said it, it's "just a fairytale, no matter what other meaning people put into it." Christian parallels are VERY obvious in these books, but parallels have been drawn between Gandalf and Jesus as well, based on...nothing. Tolkien also stated explicitly that none of his books refer to the real world. By the way, Lewis ALSO incorperated a lot of Greek, Roman, Anglosaxan and Irish mythology, so people who carry the 'Old Religions' these days could also say it's propaganda for them. Or didn't you notice all the satyrs, fauns, centaurs, dwarves, Santa Claus etc. etc., all explicitly pagan mythology?

Conclusion, Narnia as Christian propaganda is farfetched.

Spikes

Angelus3K · #7 Post by **Angelus3K** » Sun Jan 29, 2006 5:21 pm

Thankyou Spikey!

Blackthorne519 · #8 Post by **Blackthorne519** » Sun Jan 29, 2006 6:05 pm

No, it's not Far Fetched. Things can be bent to the will of the group promoting them: every Christian bookstore in my town is selling Narnia books like mad.

They can be used as propaganda if given to people on the right angle. And it's not hard to see Christian themes; you don't have to DIG for them.

That said, I love The Narnia Books, and I take them as they are. Their Christian Allegory has little to do with me, and I can seperate the spiritual from my entertainment.

Bt

VampD3 · #9 Post by **VampD3** » Sun Jan 29, 2006 6:42 pm

It may have religious elements in it but don't forget the books were wrote to be in the 1950's era so religion was strong then, well at least it always looks that way.

So what if its got religious elements about it? Children will believe what they want to believe no matter whats in a book, esp when they are old enough to really make a choice. Don't be silly its a story. They will all make up there own minds like everyone has to.

daventry · #10 Post by **daventry** » Sun Jan 29, 2006 7:05 pm

The next Movie will be of "Prince Caspian", because in the Books, the four Children return again.

The next Movie will be "The Voyage Of The Dawn Treader", because the younger Sister and the Younger Brother returns, then their Nephew will be joining them.

The reason they do this, is because they want to use the same Actors the way the Books uses the same Characters.

Now the Nephew will return again, then the next Movie will be "The Silver Chair", then he brings his Friend from School to Narnia.

The next Movie will be "The Last Battle", because the Nephew and his Friend, returns again.

The Magician's Nephew and The Horse and his Boy will be the last two movies to be made.

I hope they make all the Books into Movies and i think they will make them in this order.

Spikey · #11 Post by **Spikey** » Sun Jan 29, 2006 11:36 pm

Blackthorne519 wrote:No, it's not Far Fetched. Things can be bent to the will of the group promoting them: every Christian bookstore in my town is selling Narnia books like mad.

They can be used as propaganda if given to people on the right angle. And it's not hard to see Christian themes; you don't have to DIG for them.

Yeah sorry, I know what you mean, espcially since I said that the Christian themes are very obvious. I should have said, "the writer didn't mean for it to be Christian propaganda," which he didn't as he said so himself.

rugged · #12 Post by **rugged** » Mon Jan 30, 2006 12:46 am

You will find with all authors their writing is effected by their world view. Quite frankly I am not too bothered if a fiction book is atheistic, christian or something else in its "propoganda" if it is a good story I will read it

Vroomfondel · #13 Post by **Vroomfondel** » Mon Jan 30, 2006 2:26 am

The Narnia movie was okay. Didn't stick exactly to the books, but it turned out better than I had expected. I was expecting it to be another Harry Potter-esque screw job where the movie ends up horrible. As for Christian propaganda, sure it's there but it's your decision whether you want to agree with it or not. So what if he put it there? He wrote it didn't he?

Blackthorne519 · #14 Post by **Blackthorne519** » Mon Jan 30, 2006 2:52 am

It's only Christian propaganda if people USE it as such.

CS Lewis didn't write it as a "recruiting" tool. He just used themes, morals and values close to his heart.

Bt

Brainiac · #15 Post by **Brainiac** » Mon Jan 30, 2006 4:08 am

Blackthorne519 wrote:It's only Christian propaganda if people USE it as such.

Precisely. Meaning can be interpreted into forms never imagined by the author. In a sense, this falls into the old saying "Nothing new under the sun." Sometimes, the parallels with past works become obvious, be they the myths of the Greeks or the stories of the Bible.

Def Zeppelin · #16 Post by **Def Zeppelin** » Mon Jan 30, 2006 6:58 am

Children are incredibly underrated in so many ways. Believe me, they have their own decision making skills. They aren't being brainwashed or manipulated or controlled in a subconcious level.

Steffi Evenstar · #17 Post by **Steffi Evenstar** » Mon Jan 30, 2006 8:16 pm

As some of you may or may not know, I'm currently a seminary student, and so, I feel compelled to respond here.

I'm going to agree with BT that the series can be used as propoganda by those who want to use it as such. However, you could say the same thing about the Lord of the Rings series - I actually wrote an entire paper on the subject of Christian themes in Tolkien in an English class in college.

Anyway, my school seems to think that the Narnia movies will be the greatest thing for converting the unbelievers. I think that's bull. I really do. If you weren't a Christian before you see the movies, it's about 99.9% likely that you won't be one afterwards. And, as someone else said, kids aren't dumb. They aren't going to be manipulated by some fairy stories, like Narnia is.

In fact, it bugs me when people here try and use the stories to convert non-Christians. One of my former co-workers is in the process of trying to convert her personal trainer, and is trying to get him to read the Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe, in the hopes that it will convince him. Funny thing is, he appears to have gotten tired of humouring her in the whole process, of course, she's convinced it's spiritual warfare, but that's another story altogether.

So, in conclusion, there are a lot of Christian themes in the series, however, I don't see it as propoganda. Others may attempt to use it as that way, but in the end, it's up to the individual to decide.

Def Zeppelin · #18 Post by **Def Zeppelin** » Tue Jan 31, 2006 1:51 am

Only way for a person to convert is the need to. No one is going to believe in anything unless they have a gun to their heads.

Btw, like Steffi mentioned, there are tons of Christian themes in LOTR. One of which is when Gandalf ressurrects from the dead, who else does that in the Bible?

Parhelion · #19 Post by **Parhelion** » Tue Jan 31, 2006 4:10 am

I've never noticed any Christian themes in LOTR. I've read the series twice and seen the first two movies as well. Unless you're referring to elements universal to both religion and fiction, like courage and loyalty and so on.

I'm aware that Tolkein himself was Catholic, but ignoring that what Christian themes are present in the book?

And I've never understood what happened to Gandalf to mean that he rose from the dead, but my memory may be wrong on that.

Def Zeppelin · #20 Post by **Def Zeppelin** » Tue Jan 31, 2006 5:40 am

Well I dunno about the book, but in the second movie Gandalf the Grey becomes Gandalf the White after he fights the balrog *sp?*. He says he drifted off into space or whatever, but the thing is he transformed into a more powerful being.

I heard all of this from my Sisters Father; a man that I look up to and someone I see as wise and intelligent. *he worked for the IRS.*

Spikey · #21 Post by **Spikey** » Tue Jan 31, 2006 12:51 pm

Gandalf is resurrected by the highest Valar, Eru / Illuvatar.

calethix · #22 Post by **calethix** » Mon Feb 06, 2006 3:23 am

Sounds like Spikey could elaborate on this. What I remember from The Silmarillion, it said Gandalf was something like an angel and he wasn't the only one so I think comparing him to Jesus because he was resurrected is a bit of a stretch.

MusicallyInspired · #23 Post by **MusicallyInspired** » Mon Feb 06, 2006 4:53 am

The problem with the Christian propaganda in the Narnia books is that it isn't obvious. They're despicable because they subtly influence young, naive and impressionable minds to accept certain ideas and concepts as being right and good.

For example, a child may not notice the allegory between the resurrection of Aslan and Jesus but, having read the book, that child may then be more susceptible to believing the Christian story of Jesus's death and resurrection. The worst, most pernicious propaganda is the sort that works on a subconscious level.

Oh come on. You're telling me that all the other writers, directors, and producers aren't guilty of doing the same thing with their beliefs?? What about all the bouddist inuendos in "The Matrix"? Or more blatantly, "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon"? You could equate that almost exactly to "Narnia" and "Passion fo the Christ" The propaganda that's actually bad being taught today teaches people that anything to do with Christianity = bad. You don't see this as wrong? You could say they're doing the same thing C.S. Lewis did with Narnia just with different opinions.

Did you also know that Narnia and Passion grossed more money than any other blockbuster movies (including King Kong) and they won't even nominate Narnia for ANY awards basically because it's Christian based and the people who made it were Christian? Same thing with Passion. That movie blew everything out of the water, too. And they're not even aloud to be NOMINATED for academy awards or anything. You don't see this as propaganda and misleading? Narnia to date grossed something like $640,000,000 while one of the other blockbusters (I'm not sure which one) that are receiving awards only grossed $80,000,000? That's just pathetically and unfairly biased.

I've never noticed any Christian themes in LOTR. I've read the series twice and seen the first two movies as well. Unless you're referring to elements universal to both religion and fiction, like courage and loyalty and so on.

Besides the obvious Gandalf ressurrection, there's also the One Ring itself representing sin and how it's so hard to resist temptation. With the ultimate point of the story being destroying the ring (ie- conquering sin in your life and not succumbing to it = living a true Christian life). Christian themes are in LOTR as well, just less blatant than Narnia. Both Lewis and Tolkien knew what they were doing.

And if you think it's possible to become a Christian without knowing it you couldn't be more wrong. The very basis of Christianity is putting away yourself and doing what God wants instead. How can you do that without thinking? Similarly, how can you grow to accept Christianity easier by reading or watching a story that's influenced with Christian themes? Does watching The Matrix make you want to become a bouddist monk?

CS Lewis didn't write it as a "recruiting" tool. He just used themes, morals and values close to his heart.

I couldn't agree more.

Spikey · #24 Post by **Spikey** » Mon Feb 06, 2006 1:51 pm

calethix wrote:Sounds like Spikey could elaborate on this. What I remember from The Silmarillion, it said Gandalf was something like an angel and he wasn't the only one so I think comparing him to Jesus because he was resurrected is a bit of a stretch.

Angelic beings are distributed among two orders in Middle Earth, the higher ones are the Valar and the lower ones are the Maiar. Wizards, balrogs and Sauron were definately of the second order. Some people simplify this in "Gods" and "Angels" which is a clear religious theme from the bible. One God, Eru / Illuvatar rules over all others, sounds familiar as well...

The five Istarí / Wizards of Middle Earth are thus a Christian theme, beings with high potential but bound in chains of flesh and blood, when they were send to Middle Earth. They became somewhat human. This could be a Catholic theme concerning humans and maybe saints, the philosophy of dualism (human = something divine + something earthly). Saruman (and most probably the two Blue Wizards as well) gives in to sin, bows to the power of evil, while Radagast just doesn't quite do what he's supposed to do.

Gandalf is another matter than Saruman, Radagast and the blue wizards. His potential was soon recognised by one of the bearers of the three elvenrings, the ring Gandalf later came to possess. Jesus' potential was also special, since he was a direct son of God, or according to some cults, because he was born under extraordinary astrologic situations. Where Saruman walks among men, and eventually gives in to the temptation of evil power just like many men, and where Radagast walks among animals, closing his eyes for the corruption of the world, Gandalf walked among elves and is able to resist the temptation when Frodo offers him the ring. Gandalf wasn't corrupted by the Ring even though it was always right in front of him.

Gandalf sacrifices himself for the greater good, just like Jesus. His power is yet to be tested with that of the Balrog, also a Maiar (though by Melkor corrupted). Gandalf is resurrected by Eru / Illuvatár, the one God that rules all, because his task isn't finished. Soon hereafter though, Gandalf leaves Middle Earth with the elves. Yes, that is also a very Christian theme.

Pf! Basically, I could go on and on. But I think nobody is reading anymore at this point anyway, and if you are, I don't wanna bore you to death.

Spikes

JustLuke29 · #25 Post by **JustLuke29** » Mon Feb 06, 2006 3:45 pm

Bah, on one hand you're alluding to universal themes rather than any specific stories in the bible and on the other you are misrepresenting elements of Lord of the Rings to fit a Christian world view. For exampe, you know as well as I do that although the Valar and Maiar where created by Illuvatar they are far more closely related to the template of Norse and Greek gods than Christian angels.

Wouldn't you say that there is a difference between exploring general themes of sin, temptation and redemption (which can be found in many works of literature which pre-date Christianity such as the Greek epics) and telling a specific story about the Son of the Emperor (Son of God) sacrificing himself on a stone table (crucifix) in order to absolve the sins of a son of Adam (to absolve the sins of mankind) and then being resurrected?

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