You have chosen....*spoilers*

[Bobbin Threadbare]

and that's if you're a regular stranded person. I'm thinking of a stranded pirate. Some references are like Tintin's Red Racham Treasure or One Piece anime which had 2 person (pirate leader and a boy) stranded on an cliffy island with only food and treasure. Or that Pirates of Carribean where Jack Sparrow only has lumber and lots of rum. I didn't watch many pirates movies/tv shows/cartoons.

My point is: if Seran IS a pirate, then why the puzzle forces to think like surviving like a normal person?

The only reference I find similar with the solution are the Lost in Blue series at NDS, GB, and Wii. First, find a shelter. Then find easy food to recover strength. Then look for thing you can built as weapon and shelter upgrade. Ar last, after managed to take care of those two, searching for clue (knowledge) how to escape from the island.

But the problem here are: the protagonist are regular human stranded, not a pirate. I think Seran should stick with wizard identity only, No need to add the pirate identity as it was making things rather confusing. If Seran was not a pirate, then those solution make sense. Uf you're a pirate, then treasure comes into play though the importance was questionable.

Seran also told that the land (treasure island) was part of Daventry. It doesn't make sense for the pirate identity as the requirement to plunder many island and usually never returned to those places.

[BeerNutts]

I was thinking, "Why choose premade food, when I could have the knowledge to gather/make the food for myself. Kinda like, Why give a man a fish, when u can teach him to fish."

But, eventually, i got it after trial and error.

[MusicallyInspired]

Why does the puzzle have to have anything to do with Seran? You're the one taking the test. And again, that's the idea. Even if it was a pirate's test. The whole point is a pirate isn't supposed to take the treasure. Seran's entire life was that of a pirate and it ended badly for him. He's there to make sure it ends badly for any other greedy pirates, or that the right person finds it instead.

And I kind of find it the opposite, if Seran wasn't a pirate the entire sequence wouldn't make sense.

Well.... given the amount of trouble people are having, maybe it's not so obvious, eh?

You're right. I guess you're all just a bunch of selfish greedy people.

[Bobbin Threadbare]

hmmm... isn't the test all about choosing from important to less important?

I didn't say treasure was important in the first place, rather the opposite: it was less important. Why choose book as less important? For all I know:
1. Knowledge is always important.
2. Still, it's not related to a "pirate-stranded" situation. What do you think about the resources pirates has when he's stranded in the first place? If the person stranded on the beach are novelist then yes, they might have books with them (literally). But they gonna have to choose for survival first. After that's settled, then the knowledge comes into play. (referencing to the movie "Nim's Island")

To be exact, why choose book over treasure? That logic doesn't make any sense at all. Seran (as a pirate) would have realized at the end of his life that what was worthy when he was powerful (his treasures) are useless near the end of his life.
Now, if he's a wizard, then he would have realized that all the sorcery knowledge he has (assuming he never learn spell related to survival or teleportation) are useless near the end of his life.

Btw, I have no problem with food and tools since it was always essential for survival, any kind of stranded person.

[Anonymous Game Creator 2]

The puzzle is based on Maslow's hierarchy of needs.



The one that might throw some people off is that "financial security" is often listed in the 2nd category on the pyramid (The "Safety" one). However, the Jewel in Seran's test represents greed and riches (not just mere money or coins). Think of it as being similar to the ways you can die in QFG2 if you try to take any treasure from the Forbidden City treasury, or if you dally around, trying to search Khaveen's body for money instead of immediately dealing with Ad Avis.

I guess this Seran puzzle only becomes difficult if you try to apply too much logical thought. Remember, Seran doesn't ask you to prioritize things, but rather to simply choose the items in the order of their set value to human survival needs.

[Yendor]

The puzzle is based on Maslow's hierarchy of needs.

I was suspecting just that before the options came up. At any rate, it was clearly a standard-issue test of virtue or worthiness or whatever, so the shiny rock was unimportant. I picked the food as the top priority, but got the other two in the wrong order on the first attempt.

[Bobbin Threadbare]

in other word, the pirate identity is just a red herrings.
I admit being too fixated on that clue.

[Eld]

hmmm... isn't the test all about choosing from important to less important?

I didn't say treasure was important in the first place, rather the opposite: it was less important. Why choose book as less important? For all I know:
1. Knowledge is always important.
2. Still, it's not related to a "pirate-stranded" situation. What do you think about the resources pirates has when he's stranded in the first place? If the person stranded on the beach are novelist then yes, they might have books with them (literally). But they gonna have to choose for survival first. After that's settled, then the knowledge comes into play. (referencing to the movie "Nim's Island")

To be exact, why choose book over treasure? That logic doesn't make any sense at all. Seran (as a pirate) would have realized at the end of his life that what was worthy when he was powerful (his treasures) are useless near the end of his life.
Now, if he's a wizard, then he would have realized that all the sorcery knowledge he has (assuming he never learn spell related to survival or teleportation) are useless near the end of his life.

Btw, I have no problem with food and tools since it was always essential for survival, any kind of stranded person.

Maybe you should have not quick-clicked through his monologue - he realized that material things are totally worthless (he pretty much states that outright). So, Pirate or not, he learned his lesson in the end.

[oberonqa]

I guess this Seran puzzle only becomes difficult if you try to apply too much logical thought.

So what your saying is... the puzzle is rooted more in guessing the designers intention (which, in this case, guessing what the puzzle designer felt the importance order of the 3 items are) than it is rooted in logic.

Clearly the jewel is the red herring in the puzzle... but having to correctly identify the proper order of the remaining three items is kind of like asking 50 people what their favorite color is. Your going to get 50 different colors as an answer. Since this puzzle requires people to determine the order of importance as it applies to Seran (and by extension, the designer who designed the puzzle), it ceases to be about what the player feels is the correct order of importance... only what Seran feels is the correct order of importance.

Logic does not enter into this puzzle at all.

[Anonymous Game Creator 2]

Not the designer's intention, but the fundamental items required for survival as determined by Maslow's hierarchy of needs. I didn't design this particular game puzzle, but I was able to solve it on my first attempt without blind luck.

I think we'd need to hear more feedback about this puzzle from a wider range of players to determine if most people truly found the choices arbitrary.

[Bobbin Threadbare]

Maybe you should have not quick-clicked through his monologue - he realized that material things are totally worthless (he pretty much states that outright). So, Pirate or not, he learned his lesson in the end.

I don't. And I think Gwydion who said that piece about being worthless. Seran might motion the gesture but it's kind of obscured.

Besides, don't you think it's weird if Seran really stated that the treasure worthless but still condemn those who seeks the treasure and failed his test? Similar scenario like this one usually ends up as a freebie, not a test.

And I don't think the jewel is the red herring, it was meant for part of the choice. What I really meant by red herring is a piece of information that seems important, but actually is not and thus makes people think the other way. (of course the red herring from Monkey Island are an exception since it has comedic plot in it)

I do understand what AGS2 trying to express here since I learned the similar pyramids on my Master degree, but honestly, that "pirate" thing was a whole set-up. Maybe it's just me, but I feel cheated a bit with this test. Don't get me wrong, this is still a great remake. It's just that the test on the treasure island are not really "cooked" enough, like that stepping stones puzzle. Kudos on the artwork though, I really loved it.

[oberonqa]

Maybe you should have not quick-clicked through his monologue - he realized that material things are totally worthless (he pretty much states that outright). So, Pirate or not, he learned his lesson in the end.

I don't. And I think Gwydion who said that piece about being worthless. Seran might motion the gesture but it's kind of obscured.

Besides, don't you think it's weird if Seran really stated that the treasure worthless but still condemn those who seeks the treasure and failed his test? Similar scenario like this one usually ends up as a freebie, not a test.

And I don't think the jewel is the red herring, it was meant for part of the choice. What I really meant by red herring is a piece of information that seems important, but actually is not and thus makes people think the other way. (of course the red herring from Monkey Island are an exception since it has comedic plot in it)

I do understand what AGS2 trying to express here since I learned the similar pyramids on my Master degree, but honestly, that "pirate" thing was a whole set-up. Maybe it's just me, but I feel cheated a bit with this test. Don't get me wrong, this is still a great remake. It's just that the test on the treasure island are not really "cooked" enough, like that stepping stones puzzle. Kudos on the artwork though, I really loved it.

When I said the jewel is a red herring, I was referring to it not being a part of the solution at all. Just like the element of "choice" is not a part of the solution at all. Even though you are given the illusion of choice, there is no choice. You are stuck selecting the appropriate order of importance as dictated by Seran's rationale.

The thing is, this puzzle breaks two boundaries.

----------------------------------------------------

1) It breaks the fourth dimension by making the player choose what he/she feels is important to him/her... not what is important to the character he/she is playing. This would be fine in a Space Quest, Quest for Glory, or Leisure Suit Larry game, as those series are famous for breaking the fourth dimension rule. However, KQ games don't break the fourth dimension. The KQ games always have puzzles that not only fit the context of the environment (which this particular puzzle does), they also feature puzzles that the character would be able to figure out using their own knowledge (separate from the players knowledge). For example, if Graham came across a puzzle that required him to solve an trigonometry math problem, this breaks the fourth dimension due to the puzzle relying on the player's knowledge of trigonometry to solve, something that Graham would have no knowledge of.

In the case of Seran's puzzle, Gwydion/Alexander is forced by the pirates to deal with Seran in order to get the treasure. Gwydion/Alex has no knowledge of Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs... and said Hierarchy doesn't even apply to Gwydion/Alex's situation. He isn't even in control of his own needs at this particular point in time. His only concern is reaching Daventry to save his sister and be reunited with his family. To that end, he has to get the treasure from Seran for the pirates. The needs of the pirates, therefore, become Gwydion/Alex's needs first and foremost, since the pirates are an obstacle in Gwydion/Alex's journey (which takes a backseat to the pirates needs, since the pirates needs are more pressing and must be addressed before Gwydion/Alex's needs can be addressed).

Since the player is playing the role of Gwydion/Alex, the needs of the pirates become the players needs. That being said, his first priority would be the treasure (signified by the jewel), as this is what the pirates need and therefore what Gwydion/Alex needs before he can achieve his goal. He would then choose knowledge (signified by the book), as knowledge would bring him enlightenment not only in getting the treasure for the pirates (satisfying the needs of the pirates), but also enlightenment on how to reach Daventry and deal with the dragon (satisfying the needs of Gwydion/Alex). Lastly, he would choose shelter (signified by the planks), as shelter would imply home, and that is ultimately what Gwydion/Alex is working towards by escaping Manannan and traveling to Daventry (which put him in contact with the obstacle of the pirates).

In order for Gwydion/Alex to address his own needs, he must first address the needs of the pirates. This is actually a recurring theme in KQ3 if you break it down. Gwydion/Alex's first need is to escape Manannan and survive. In order to survive, he must address Manannan's needs while Manannan is an obstacle (translation: when he is either not on a journey or sleeping). Only when Manannan's needs are met can Gwydion/Alex pursue his own need to escape Manannan and survive.

The pirates form the second need is to escape the pirates. I've said enough about that particular need so no need to rehash it again. The third and final need that Gwydion/Alex must contend with is the needs of Daventry. He cannot achieve his goal of being reunited with his family and living happily ever after until the dragon has been dealt with and Rosella rescued.

In all three of these instances, Gwydion/Alex must put the needs of others before his own needs, as that is the only way to achieve his own needs.

2) It punishes the player. After making the player choose the order of importance for the items, the game then punishes the player for "not having their priorities in line" if the players choices do not conform to the puzzle's solution. By punishing the player for making a conscious choice as to what he/she values and in what order, the game is inadvertently passing judgment on the player. For example, if the player feels that having the knowledge to build a shelter prior to building said shelter and prior to getting food/sustenance is the order of importance to him/her, the game passes judgment on the player and informs him/her that their priorities are not in line.

Again, depending on the game series in question, this kind of behavior is expected and enjoyable (for example, the further misadventures of Roger Wilco or the never-ending journeys of Larry Laffer). But KQ games don't generally pass judgment on the player. Even in some of the more contrived death sequences in the series, the sequences are always careful to maintain the fourth dimension (see point 1) by addressing the failures of the character... not the player.

So when Rosella is eaten by a shark while swimming from the Tamir mainland to Genesta's island, it's not the player who got eaten, it's Rosella, and whatever death sequence dialog pops up maintains this by addressing Rosella and not the player.

----------------------------------------------------

There really is no easy fix to this puzzle... and I'm not entirely convinced it needs to be fixed. After all, I enjoyed the break from the traditional KQ structure by having a non-logic puzzle introduced into the mix. However, if AGDI were to try to fix this puzzle to address the two points I outlined, I would suggest doing one or more of the following:

A. Change Seran's dialogue to ask the player to choose that which Seran learned was most important to Seran. By doing this, the fourth dimension remains intact, as Seran tells Gwydion/Alex enough about himself to enable Gwydion/Alex (and therefore, the player) to correctly select the proper items.

B. Remove the specific order requirement from the puzzle. If the player selects the food, the planks, and the book, that should serve as the solution. Requiring a specific order for the choices only results in the player being punished by the game. The fourth dimension still remains broken by doing this, but it breaks it in such a way as to be nostalgic for SIerra gamers (which is your target audience). It is only when the game proceeds to punish the player for incorrectly choosing the specific order of the items that the puzzle becomes a game-breaking encounter.

C. Change the item choices to objects that would have a personal meaning for Gwydion/Alex. Seran, being an undead wizard (for all intent and purposes) should know enough of Gwydion/Alex (especially from what Gwydion/Alex said to Seran) to enable Seran to conjure up objects that would be significant to Gwydion/Alex. Instead of:

----> Book (knowledge)
----> Planks (shelter)
----> Food (survival)
----> Jewel (greed)

Replace them with the following:

----> Home (belonging)
----> Sword (courage)
----> Family (love)
----> Bag of coins (greed)

Since Gwydion/Alex is on this journey to be reunited with his family, he is looking to love and be loved... which would be the most important. He needs a sword (metaphorically speaking) so as to have the courage to face danger, which would be next in line. And lastly, he is looking for his home, which is to say he is looking for a sense of belonging, which would be the third and final choice.

By doing this, the fourth dimension is maintained, and by this point in the game, the player knows enough about Gwydion/Alex that they would be able to properly select the correct order of importance (since this would essentially be a reaffirmation of what Gwydion/Alex and the player learned from the Oracle), which would keep the game from punishing the player. And if the player didn't select the appropriate order of importance, it would be clear through the puzzle's presentation that Gwydion/Alex did not fully understand what he is actually questing for... not the player.

[Bobbin Threadbare]

wow. What an interesting thought...
I think that's applicable from Gwydion's point of view. But in my case, I was referring to Seran's point of view, as the test giver.

Still, a very well done explanation.

[techie775]

I didn't have any trouble with it. I just figured the treasure = death cause it'd show what kind of person you were. I'm just glad I saw the books cause I almost missed them.

[oversight1979]

Wow. Read the entire thread and I am still stumped. I ignored the jewels. So which is it? I keep choosing the book, the tools, and the food. But of course I am wrong. Maybe its the food, the tools, the book? I don't know. I know for sure, its not the jewels though.

[oversight1979]

Ok. Got it! I didn't see the clothes with the food. So if anyone needs help with this, now I can offer help as well.

[JohnWWells]

There's a more basic problem here, and it drove me nuts. I really did get immensely frustrated on this one, because, while I guessed that the jewels were last, EVERY OTHER POSSIBILITY was logical.

Survival argument:

In a survival situation, the first thing you usually need is shelter. You can live without food for a long while, but the elements aren't so forgiving. After that, you need food, and after that, some form of occupation to keep yourself sane. So: Shelter, food, book, jewels.

Maslow's Hierarchy argument:

Given above. I think Maslow's hierarchy is artificial, though; needs aren't ranked in real life. Not even remotely. This does give the 'required' answer.

I have been paying attention to the plot, you know!:

This is a game about a boy who escapes from slavery, fights impossible odds, and saves a country by learning stuff. If the original game had a moral, it was that knowledge and self-knowledge are the most powerful thing in the world.

Yes, Alex needs food (mostly to feed Manannan) and he needs shelter (but never needed to build it with tools)...

... but if it weren't for two plot-relevant books and a scroll, he'd never have survived to reach the test in the first place!

James Thurber argument:

The story is here; it's very short.

Moral: If you chose the tools, book, and food over the jewel, please write on the chalkboard a thousand times, "I'd trade away a giant diamond for a book or maybe a croissant."

-----

Even if we choose correctly, the game says nothing but "you don't die this time." We never even learn the rationale for the right choice!

This could all be dealt with pretty well if the game simply noted what Alexander picked as having the greatest value. ("Choose the one you value most.") Regardless of what he picked, the pirate would prepare to kill him - and then he would defend his choice.

(Hypothetical examples; not meant as recommendations. I just found this an interesting scenario to write a bit of, I don't know, branching fanfic about.)

Book:

Alex: "Hold!"
"Mere days ago, I was a doomed slave."
"No matter what I ate, or built, or owned, I was to die on my eighteenth birthday..."
"Until I discovered the wisdom of one who died before me..."
"And the secrets of the man who enslaved me."
"This wizard, for all of his wealth and power, was defeated by knowledge."
"So tell me, pirate. Why am I wrong?"

(Go to Seran's reply, below.)

Tools:

Alex: "Hold!"
"To build a future with your own hands and your own tools is the most valuable thing."
"You may eat and read and own all the wealth in the world..."
"But the wizard who enslaved me did, and it did him no good."
"I spent eighteen years laboring for that man, and I know this..."
"A man must work!"
"So tell me, pirate. Why am I wrong?"

Food:

Alex:
"Hold!"
"I've spent eighteen years making food for a cruel man."
"This wizard had power over every builder in the land..."
"All the wealth that he could want..."
"And all the knowledge one could ever hope for."
"But without food, he would have died, and in the end, it was food that ended his tyranny."
"So tell me, pirate. Why am I wrong?"

Seran's Reply: (To food, book, tools)

Seran: "What did this wizard do with his wealth, his sustenance, his knowledge, and his power?"

Alex: "He stole me from my family."

Seran: "Why did he need to live, then?"

Alex: "I don't know, but I chose not to kill him."

Seran: "As a dead man, I respect that. The true value of things lies not in what they are, but what we do with them."
"Take this orb. Use it well."

-----

Jewel:

Seran:
"You have the audacity to choose the jewel, even after what I have told you?"

Alex:
"Yes. It is true that the wealth of my old master, the wizard Manannan, did him no good in the end."
"But I once stole a purse, to buy what I needed to become free."
"And I know that wealth can't buy me a warm father or a kind mother..."
"But neither can anything else you've shown me!"
"Money can buy food! It can buy shelter! It can buy books! And it bought me a way home!"
"When I get there, I will use everything I own to protect my family!"
"So tell me, pirate. Why am I wrong?"

Seran:
"You admit that you stole?"

Alex:
"Yes. From men who were thieves themselves, and from my master, and once, from, er, bears..."

Seran:
"Enough. You are the man I could have been. One who steals, but has a heart."
"Take the orb and go."

--

Hand icon on Alexander himself:

Alex: "I am the most valuable thing here."

Seran: "Conceited boy!"

Alex: "Not because of who I am, but because I am alive."
"Any living thing is more important than these THINGS. And I intend to stay alive, so I can keep my family alive as well."
"I've been shown the danger they're in, and I want to help them, no matter what."
"So enough tests! What do you want from me?"

Seran: "I want you... to take this orb, and use it well."

----

Hand icon on Seran himself:

Alex: "Of all the things you have shown me..."
Alex: "You are most valuable, because you are not a thing."

Seran: "What?"

Alex: "I spent eighteen years working for a wizard who valued things more than people."
"He cared for his dinner, his books, his house, and his wealth, but he was prepared to kill me at any time."

Seran: "So you killed him first?"

Alex: "No. I kept him alive, but made him harmless."
"You see, I put a magical cookie in his food that turned him into a cat."

Seran: "Wouldn't it have been easier to poison him?"

Alex: "That... didn't even occur to me."
"And I would not harm you. You have been alone for years, trapped on this island, with nobody to care about you."
"Is it wrong for you to be valuable?"

Seran: "I do not know what to say."
"Take this orb, and use it well."


-----

This approach replaces a puzzle with a chance to define Alexander's character, and gain some sympathy for him. Instead of asking the player to guess the designer's intent, it gives the player a chance to say what they think Alexander should value, and why.

(Incidentally, my answer, which I was disappointed not to see a response for, was "hand icon on Alex.")

[Brainiac]

... ... ...

John W Wells wins the internet. A marvelous argument, sir; I salute you.

[JohnWWells]

The makers of the remake win the Internet; I just rent a few places here and there.

[Anonymous Game Creator 2]

Yeah, but.... think of all that extra lip-syncing!

[Gronagor]

Wow. Lots of philosphy going on here. All totally wrong and baseless, but I'll give you points for trying. Better luck next time.

[Bobbin Threadbare]

Not really. This puzzle teaches me to not taking hints for granted, as in: Look out for red herrings.

[DrJones]

This puzzle seemed so straightforward, I didn't know it would turn into a long philosophy rant. My logical instinct is that you people got fooled into overthinking the solution. The only other explanation I have is that you are philosophy majors and AGDI overstepped in your domain, hence the really long replies.

[Bobbin Threadbare]

Well... it was the test of life. Of course it would attract major debate.

And maybe next time, try to create puzzle that's not sensible to life issues. People does have different priorities you know.

I just remember: that's the line Ron says in Harry Potter 1 commenting Hermione: "She needs to sort her priorities!"

[Erpy]

True, but we didn't expect people to believe food and water were less important to survival than tools and shelter or that academic knowledge trumped tools and shelter in the direct needs for survival department.