Lion statues puzzle *SPOILERS*

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AtZeuS · #1 Post by **AtZeuS** » Tue Mar 18, 2003 11:08 pm

Hi I have my theory about how you can know which lion statue (at the tower at the end of the game) does actually say the right riddle about which buttons to push on the dial. This is probably correct, but I'd like to A: see if this is the reasoning the rest of you used and B: explain it to the people who are scratching their head over this because it's actually not really that simple. So here goes my theory: We've got two lions, one always telling the truth one always lying. We've got to know which lion is telling the right riddle. The left lion (as of now referred to as LL) says that the right lion(RL) would say that it doesn't know a way to get trough the door if you asked him. And the RL says that the LL would say that it does know a way to get trough the door if you asked him. There are two cases: Case 1: LL is lying RL is telling the truth In this case the RL tells the right riddle because LL says that RL would say that he doesn't know the way trough the door and LL is lying so actually RL would say that he does know a way and RL is telling the truth. And RL says that LL would say that he does know the way trough. Since RL is telling the truth LL would actually say that he knows the way trough but he is lying so he doesn't actually know the way trough. Case 2: LL is telling the truth RL is lying Again RL says that LL would say that he does know the way trough. RL is lying so LL would actually say that he doesn't know a way trough and he is telling the truth so he doesn't know. Since LL says that RL would say that he doesn't know the way trough, and LL is telling the truth this is actually what RL would say, but RL is lying so he does know the way trough! Conclusion: In both cases RL knows the way trough and LL doesn't! So you should use RL's riddle to open the door. The only that bothers me is that in case 2 RL is lying so how can he say the correct riddle? Makes your head hurt doesn't it? <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/im ... /smile.gif ALT=":)"> Great puzzle though! Off course you could just try out both riddles to see which one works! <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/im ... /smile.gif ALT=":)"> But that's no fun <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/im ... /smile.gif ALT=":)"> Let me know what ya'll think! <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/im ... /smile.gif ALT=":)">

#2 Post by **Anonymous Game Creator 2** » Tue Mar 18, 2003 11:19 pm

Hmmm, I think... I think you'll be glad to know that Wookie changed the wording of the lions' initial poem to avoid that particular contradiction for the next release of KQ2VGA! No more headaches for you. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/im ... /smile.gif ALT=":)">

AtZeuS · #3 Post by **AtZeuS** » Tue Mar 18, 2003 11:40 pm

So my reasoning is right!?!? WOOOHOOOOO! <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/im ... /smile.gif ALT=":)"> <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/im ... /smile.gif ALT=":)"> Yeah changing it so it doesn't have that contradiction would be great! Did you already know about that contradiction or did I discover it first.. Hmm probably not <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/im ... /smile.gif ALT=":)"> Did this riddle already exsist before KQIIRTS or did you come up with it?

Lord Sloth · #4 Post by **Lord Sloth** » Wed Mar 19, 2003 3:15 am

<ENTER LORD SLOTH> Anyone ever see the movie "Labyrinth" with David Bowie? Good Jim Henson movie, and it has almost that very same riddle (in that case there were two doors and a guard (statue) for each, and the protagonist had to ask one if the other would tell me that his door lead to certain death), but it's basically still the same. I never understood how she got the right answer in the movie, but I got the right answer the first time in KQ:RTS, so either I've gotten smarter or Tierra worded the riddle better. Now I'm not sure if "Labyrinth" created that riddle itself, but it was made about the same time as the original KQ2 so it defiantly came before RTS was conceived. The one thing that I still don't get is when they say the statement "one of us tells the truth and one of us lies" one of them is a complete liar so how could he say a true statement like that? I want to know but I don't like thinking about this too hard <ouch>.<img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/im ... s/sick.gif ALT=":x"> <EXIT LORD SLOTH>

AtZeuS · #5 Post by **AtZeuS** » Wed Mar 19, 2003 3:48 am

My guess is that the lying lion(we don't know which one that is <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/im ... /smile.gif ALT=":)"> telling the true statement is yet another contradiction <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/im ... /smile.gif ALT=":)"> Maybe some more work for wookie? <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/im ... /smile.gif ALT=":)"> Haven't seen the movie though.

optic · #6 Post by **optic** » Wed Mar 19, 2003 5:28 am

That puzzle really made my brain hurt. I'm not good at puzzles, and I was hitting the monitor everytime I died. "ARGH!" <img src="http://www.southwest.com.au/~jackie/ava ... tbeast.jpg" style="border:0;"/>

anathoth8 · #7 Post by **anathoth8** » Wed Mar 19, 2003 6:39 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>The one thing that I still don't get is when they say the statement "one of us tells the truth and one of us lies" one of them is a complete liar so how could he say a true statement like that? I want to know but I don't like thinking about this too hard <ouch>.<hr></blockquote>You should see AGD2's above statement. Here it is for you:<blockquote>Quote:<hr>I think you'll be glad to know that Wookie changed the wording of the lions' initial poem to avoid that particular contradiction for the next release of KQ2VGA! <hr></blockquote>I believe that this is what he is referring to, so get ready for v2.0! <img src="http://image1ex.villagephotos.com/1679471.jpg" style="border:0;"/> "May the way of the hero lead to the Triforce."

Lord Sloth · #8 Post by **Lord Sloth** » Wed Mar 19, 2003 7:41 am

<ENTER LORD SLOTH> ah, I skimmed over the word "inital", so I thought he was talking about some other contradiction. My mistake. <EXIT LORD SLOTH>

MusicallyInspired · #9 Post by **MusicallyInspired** » Wed Mar 19, 2003 9:17 am

I really enjoyed that puzzle. Well thought out! I also reasoned the same way and never just tried both of them. Best puzzle I've ever seen in an adventure game! <hr /> "Requires MCGA, CGA, VGA, PGA, or TA-RA-RA-BOOMGA!!" -Gary Owens, SQ4

AtZeuS · #10 Post by **AtZeuS** » Wed Mar 19, 2003 6:53 pm

I've given it some more thought and a descent night's sleep. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/im ... /smile.gif ALT=":)"> It think there are three minor flaws in this puzzle: 1: the one that Lord Sloth mentioned. That one of the lions makes a true statement (that one of them is lying and one is telling truth) while he actually should be lying. This is where it gets more complicated. We can only reason which lion knows the way trough the door. It is impossible to reason which lion is telling the truth and which one is lying. 2. So we know which lion knows the way trough be we cannot be sure that he is actually telling the truth(i.e. giving you the correct riddle to get trough)! Therefore you cannot be 100% be sure that you got the right way trough(without testing it off course). In case 2 the riddle of the RL should actually be incorrect. 3. If LL is telling the truth(case 2) how can he give you an incorrect riddle to get trough! Of course since RL gives the right riddle he must be telling the truth. But IMHO you should be able to be 100% sure that you are using the right riddle without testing it. So everything should be without contradictions both in case 1 and case 2(see above). This is in need of some very clever rewriting <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/im ... /smile.gif ALT=":)"> My suggestion is that: You find a note (or something else than the lions telling you that one of them lies and one of them is telling the truth) which says that one of the lions is lying and that one is telling the truth, but that if one of them knows the correct way trough he shall give you the correct riddle. This eliminates all flaws! <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/im ... /smile.gif ALT=":)"> anathoth8& Lord Sloth: I believe that AGD2 was referring to minor flaw # 2 (the one that i also mentioned in my original post) and was talking about changing the intial words of lions so that it would make sense that the RL was telling the right riddle even in case 2. I sure hope that all of this makes sense to anyone <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/im ... /smile.gif ALT=":)"> Please post if understand or see a flaw in my reasoning or in the puzzle <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/im ... /smile.gif ALT=":)"> Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub57.ezboard.com/broyalquestfor ... >AtZeuS</A> at: 3/19/03 1:07:25 pm

MusicallyInspired · #11 Post by **MusicallyInspired** » Wed Mar 19, 2003 7:50 pm

Ahhhh, yes I understand now. After they said one lies and one tells the truth I just ignored it and proceeded as if that poem (before the puzzle) they were both telling the truth. Never thought to apply the puzzle to that part of it. Hehe it's almost an amazing feat to think past the already brain-hurting puzzle and find a flaw in it <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/im ... /smile.gif ALT=":)"> . <hr /> "Requires MCGA, CGA, VGA, PGA, or TA-RA-RA-BOOMGA!!" -Gary Owens, SQ4

anathoth8 · #12 Post by **anathoth8** » Wed Mar 19, 2003 8:42 pm

Yeah, it is necessary to assume that the one who is telling the truth knows the correct answer, but also that the lying lion does not know the correct answer. Given that fact, all logic then falls into place. I just made that assumption when I played it and so was able to figure it out, but perhaps the game should explicitly state this rule as well. Edit: BTW, AGD2 was refering to the lions' opening poem. I know this because there has already been a discussion about that poem in another thread. Basically, it is what has already been said; the lions both make a true statement when reciting their poem, but the lying lion should not be able to make a true statement. <img src="http://image1ex.villagephotos.com/1679471.jpg" style="border:0;"/> "May the way of the hero lead to the Triforce."Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub57.ezboard.com/broyalquestfor ... athoth8</A> at: 3/19/03 2:44:34 pm

AtZeuS · #13 Post by **AtZeuS** » Wed Mar 19, 2003 9:14 pm

Exactly! Stating that would also work, and would probably be better than my sugestion (see above) <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/im ... /smile.gif ALT=":)"> In my suggestion the one lion would lie and one would tell the truth, but no matter if one lies or tells the truth if it knows the riddle it will give it to you. This is a really crappy workaround <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/im ... /smile.gif ALT=":)"> And my explanaiton was pretty crappy too <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/im ... /smile.gif ALT=":)"> <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/im ... /smile.gif ALT=":)"> Stating that the lion that knows the correct riddle tells the truth would be a very good sollution. Edit: And stating that the lion who doesn't know the correct awnser lies. Btw: Where's that thread about the lion's poem? I can't find it. If it doesn't excist anymore could you tell me how they are planning to change it? Auchh... My head hurts... <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/im ... /smile.gif ALT=":)"> <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/im ... /smile.gif ALT=":)"> Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub57.ezboard.com/broyalquestfor ... >AtZeuS</A> at: 3/19/03 3:16:10 pm

anathoth8 · #14 Post by **anathoth8** » Wed Mar 19, 2003 9:34 pm

<a href="http://pub57.ezboard.com/froyalquestfor ... =239.topic" target="top">Here you go</a>. It took me some time, but I found it. <img src="http://image1ex.villagephotos.com/1679471.jpg" style="border:0;"/> "May the way of the hero lead to the Triforce."

AtZeuS · #15 Post by **AtZeuS** » Wed Mar 19, 2003 10:38 pm

Thanks! <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/im ... /smile.gif ALT=":)"> Looking at that thread helped me and this is what I came up with for a poem that eliminates all flaws! "I tell the truth, the other one lies, I know the correct clues, The other does not is my advise." They can both say that without contradictions. I didn't include: " If you can figure out our clues, You may enter if but to die. " from the original poem because the lying lion can't say that. This not a really good poem <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/im ... /smile.gif ALT=":)"> but it does work <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/im ... /smile.gif ALT=":)"> Lemme know what everybody thinks.

MuzlakOofmay · #16 Post by **MuzlakOofmay** » Thu Mar 20, 2003 5:12 am

Grr... I STILL don't get it. I just guessed, lol. <img src="http://www.nancycarterdesign.com/bryce/pimpbot.gif" style="border:0;"/> ---------- <a href="http://www.nancycarterdesign.com/spongefactory/" target="top">Sponge Factory</a>

GabrielKnight52 · #17 Post by **GabrielKnight52** » Thu Mar 20, 2003 8:15 am

I think that the difficulty is in assuming that only one lion knows the way. In 'reality' both lions know, but only one will tell you the truth. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/im ... /alien.gif ALT="0]">

anathoth8 · #18 Post by **anathoth8** » Thu Mar 20, 2003 8:42 am

No, GabrielKnight, you've got it backwards. Here's the answer as simple as I can make it: SPOILERS BELOW (but this thread is already full of them <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/im ... /laugh.gif ALT=":lol"> ) Here is how it works out if only the truth telling lion knows the solition, but the lying lion does not. In either case, you are told by each lion if the other will tell you whether or not he knows the solution. 1) The lying lion tells you his companion will answer 'no'. Since he is lying, his companion would answer 'yes'. The truth telling lion answers 'yes' and therefore has the correct solution. 2) The truth telling lion says that the other will answer 'yes'. When the lying lion says 'yes' he knows the solution, he is lying, since he does not know. If on the other hand, you assume that both lions know the correct solution, here is what would happen. Again, you are told by each lion if the other would tell you that he knows the solution. 1) The lying lion tells you the the other will answer 'no'. Since he is lying, his companion would answer 'yes'. This works out the same as above. 2) The truth telling lion says that the other will answer 'yes'. So if the lying lion does answer 'yes', then he is telling the truth, which he cannot do. Therefore, you must make the assumption that only the truth telling lion knows the correct solution, otherwise you will run into trouble with the logic. Making that assumption, the puzzle is solved in the following manner: 1) The lion on the left says the other will tell you that he does not know the answer. If this is true, then the right lion does not know. The lion on the right says the other will tell you that he does know the answer. If this is a lie, the left lion will answer that he does not know the answer. If the left lion is telling the truth, the conclusion is that neither lion knows the answer. Obviously, this is not correct. 2) The lion on the left says the other will tell you that he does not know the answer. If this is a lie, then the right lion will answer that he does know. The lion on the right says that the other will tell you that he does know the answer. If this is true, then the other is lying and so does not know the answer. In this case you have ruled that the left lion does not know the solution, but the right lion does. This is the correct solution to the puzzle. END SPOILERS Sorry for the lengthy post, but I hope that this is sufficiently clear now. <img src="http://image1ex.villagephotos.com/1679471.jpg" style="border:0;"/> "May the way of the hero lead to the Triforce."Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub57.ezboard.com/broyalquestfor ... athoth8</A> at: 3/20/03 2:33:57 pm

AtZeuS · #19 Post by **AtZeuS** » Thu Mar 20, 2003 7:00 pm

Please bear with me for another lengthy post <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/im ... /smile.gif ALT=":)"> <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/im ... /laugh.gif ALT=":lol"> <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/im ... /smile.gif ALT=":)"> <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/im ... /laugh.gif ALT=":lol"> This thread is getting more and more confusing <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/im ... /smile.gif ALT=":)"> Hehe... I was reading your post anathoth8 and thought it was me that you where talking about. That I had it wrong and that you were talking about my suggestion for the intial(!) poem. I was completly puzzled! <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/im ... /laugh.gif ALT=":lol"> But then I saw that you were talking to GabrielKnight52 <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/im ... /smile.gif ALT=":)"> However i did discover a flaw in your explaination to GabrielKnight52 : When your explaining how to solve the puzzle when assuming that only the truth telling lion knows. You write: 1) The lion on the left says the other will tell you that he does not know the answer. If this is true, then the right lion does not know. The lion on the right says the other will tell you that he does know the answer. If this is a lie, the left lion will answer that he does not know the answer. If the left lion is telling the truth, the conclusion is that neither lion knows the answer. Obviously, this is not correct. Obviously there's an error here <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/im ... /smile.gif ALT=":)"> As i explained in my original post: It doesn't matter if the left Lion or the right lion tells the truth. In both cases the conclusion is that the right lion knows the anwser. Here's where the error is: The lion on the left says the other will tell you that he does not know the answer. If this is true, then the right lion does not know. <------ Error! <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/im ... /smile.gif ALT=":)"> Actually it should read: if this is true, than the right lion is lying (since the left lion is telling the truth). So RL will actually say that he does not know, but he's lying! So he does know! Giving some more thougt to it, you do not have to make any assumptions! Including that the lion who knows the correct riddle tells the truth. You can deduce that in the following matter: If the LL is telling the truth, and RL is lying, and you have already concluded that the RL knows the way trough. Then there would be no way to get the correct riddle! So RL must be telling the truth and LL must be lying. So goodbye to minor flaw #2 and #3 <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/im ... /smile.gif ALT=":)"> This also elimantes the need for my intial poem <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/im ... /frown.gif ALT=":("> I was gonna explain here how that poem would have worked, but since it's redundant, and I highly doubt that anyone is interested, and it's kinda complicated <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/im ... /smile.gif ALT=":)"> I'm not going to. If anyone is interested I will be glad to explain! So this leaves only minor flaw #1!

anathoth8 · #20 Post by **anathoth8** » Thu Mar 20, 2003 8:25 pm

Darn it. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/im ... ns/mad.gif ALT=">:"> I realized my error this morning and was hoping that no one had read my post yet. Oh, well. The first part of the solution should read as follows: 1) The lion on the left says the other will tell you that he does not know the answer. If this is true, then the right lion will answer that he does not know. If this is a lie, then he does know, but being a liar, he cannot tell you the correct answer. The lion on the right says the other will tell you that he does know the answer. If this is a lie, the left lion will answer that he does not know the answer. If the left lion is telling the truth, then he does not know. In this case, however, the truth telling lion tells you a lie by giving you an answer! You are correct in learning that the right lion always knows the answer and that the left lion always does not know. (Reread through my testing of the assumption that one of the lions cannot know the correct answer) That in itself does not prove which lion is telling the truth. But we can deduce that the right lion is telling the truth, while the left lion is telling lies, because a lying lion cannot give the correct response, and a truth telling lion cannot give a false response. So my second case must be the correct case. <img src="http://image1ex.villagephotos.com/1679471.jpg" style="border:0;"/> "May the way of the hero lead to the Triforce."Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub57.ezboard.com/broyalquestfor ... athoth8</A> at: 3/20/03 2:33:24 pm

AtZeuS · #21 Post by **AtZeuS** » Thu Mar 20, 2003 9:15 pm

Great! <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/im ... /laugh.gif ALT=":lol"> Shouldn't you be playing wind waker by now (yeah i also read other posts <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/im ... /smile.gif ALT=":)"> ) There is not much else to be said about this puzzle <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/im ... /smile.gif ALT=":)"> This is a shameless manner of bringing my increasing my # of posts <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/im ... /smile.gif ALT=":)"> Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub57.ezboard.com/broyalquestfor ... >AtZeuS</A> at: 3/20/03 3:17:00 pm

anathoth8 · #22 Post by **anathoth8** » Thu Mar 20, 2003 9:26 pm

I would be playing Wind Waker, but sadly, it will not be released for another six days. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/im ... /frown.gif ALT=":("> I just have one final thing to say about the initial poem. The reason that the AGDs and Wookie are trying to fix it is that both statements made in the poem are true. The complaint is that the lying lion cannot make a true statement. My suggestion is to reword the poem to indicate that this truth telling and lying exercise has not yet begun. If you can figure out our clues, You may enter, if but to die. One of us will always tell the truth, The other will always lie. This keeps most of the original poem intact, but still changes the rules enough that it will work out. Yeah, I've had about enough of this topic of discussion as well. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/im ... /laugh.gif ALT=":lol"> <img src="http://image1ex.villagephotos.com/1679471.jpg" style="border:0;"/> "May the way of the hero lead to the Triforce."Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub57.ezboard.com/broyalquestfor ... athoth8</A> at: 3/20/03 3:27:14 pm

AtZeuS · #23 Post by **AtZeuS** » Thu Mar 20, 2003 9:58 pm

Six days? Damn I wish it would be released here (in europe the netherlands) in six days! I'm gonna buy that game even though i do not have a gamecube <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/im ... /smile.gif ALT=":)"> I'm gonna rent a GC or something <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/im ... /smile.gif ALT=":)"> Yeah that poem would deal with minor flaw #1 <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/im ... /smile.gif ALT=":)"> (the ONLY flaw) I had something similar in mind: After this poem, these words will be true. You want in the tower to roam? Then figure out our clues. Dammit it forgot the rest! <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/im ... /laugh.gif ALT=":lol"> Oh well yours is better anyway <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/im ... /smile.gif ALT=":)">

anathoth8 · #24 Post by **anathoth8** » Fri Mar 21, 2003 1:29 am

Oh, man. As a gamer, I'm glad that I don't live in Europe. You guys always get the games last. In addition, since you're on the PAL format, you can't even import. Sometimes I wish I lived in Japan. They almost always get games first there. On the plus side, though, the games are often improved in the regions that they are later released. In Europe, you get speech in Metroid Prime (excellent game as well, BTW) that we didn't get in the US where it released first. Oh, well. That's life. Perhaps we should start a new thread if we are going to continue this discussion. Although it is your thread, so you can really take it wherever you want. <img src="http://image1ex.villagephotos.com/1679471.jpg" style="border:0;"/> "May the way of the hero lead to the Triforce."Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub57.ezboard.com/broyalquestfor ... athoth8</A> at: 3/20/03 7:30:07 pm

The Knight · #25 Post by **The Knight** » Sun Mar 23, 2003 12:43 am

With the lions I just picked one, tried what it said, if it didn't work then I did the other one, and I got in. And speech in Metriod Prime!?! *drools* The Knight <img src="http://image1ex.villagephotos.com/1799499.jpg" style="border:0;"/>

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